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Late Game City-State influence.

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by ShmooDude, Jan 24, 2014.

  1. ShmooDude

    ShmooDude Chieftain

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    One thing I've been thinking about recently is how the influence amount from gifts to city-states doesn't decay over the eras. 1000g during the Classical era is a significantly larger investment than 1000g during the Atomic era.

    In late game, it tends to become trivial to buy up all the city-states if you so desire.

    It seems to me that either the amount of gold to buy city-state influence should go up by era or the amount of influence you get should go down (or a combination of both).

    This would also significantly increase the value of completing a city-state's quests, which by late game I usually just ignore.

    I wanted to see if other people felt similarly.
     
  2. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    I would agree with that.

    It truly irritates me in the late-game when cashed up civs buyout my long-term allies just before a significant event (World Congress or DOWs or the like)

    I was hoping to get the CSD mod to work alongside Communitas but alas so far I have failed.

    Any move to reduce the ridiculously easy method of gaining CS allies is a win from me.:goodjob:
     
  3. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    I agree with you guys on this too. I mentioned in another thread a fix I've been using to try to address this issue.

    I put an effect on the patronage opener that makes other civilizations influence decrease 25% faster. So when roughly half of the civs pick Patronage, then the effect is to make everyone lose influence faster, especially in the late game. I can still ally with city states. In my current game I've ignored the Patronage tree and city states in general. Many city states are allied with other civs. Some of them are allied with no one, even in the modern era. Recently, I've bought up a couple of them for strategic reasons. The game seems more balanced this way. No one can dominate all city states, except for maybe really late in the game if you're going for a diplomatic victory. It's a crude mechanic, but it's giving the intended effect. I'm not sure if there's a way to do what you suggest without a DLL mod.
     
  4. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    Version 14 Works for me. I haven't tried the newer versions yet as they mod cityview.lua. Gazebo has promised help in merging it with the one from CEP. When the new CEP release comes out (hopefully after the weekend) I'll give it a go and report back.

    Running CSD with CEP has somehow always just worked for me but I see a lot of users reporting problems. Guess some of the are related to which mod runs last so we should propably experiment with making references.

    Also there's the matter of making the csd option in the CEP options file work gain (placeholder right now). Should be pretty simple sql (you can see in the csd files how CSD sets 0 gold cost 0 influence effectively turning off gold gifts - see below). I haven't succeeded in making it work though.

    Spoiler :
    --Gold Gifting Off
    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = 0
    WHERE Name = 'MINOR_GOLD_GIFT_LARGE' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM CSD WHERE Type='GIFT_OPTION' AND Value= 2 );

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = 0
    WHERE Name = 'MINOR_GOLD_GIFT_MEDIUM' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM CSD WHERE Type='GIFT_OPTION' AND Value= 2 );

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = 0
    WHERE Name = 'MINOR_GOLD_GIFT_SMALL' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM CSD WHERE Type='GIFT_OPTION' AND Value= 2 );

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = 0
    WHERE Name = 'MINOR_CIV_GOLD_GIFT_MINIMUM_FRIENDSHIP_REWARD' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM CSD WHERE Type='GIFT_OPTION' AND Value= 2 );

    --Investment and Give Gold Quests Off
    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = 1
    WHERE Name = 'QUEST_DISABLED_INVEST' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM CSD WHERE Type='GIFT_OPTION' AND Value= 2 );

    UPDATE Defines
    SET Value = 1
    WHERE Name = 'QUEST_DISABLED_GIVE_GOLD' AND EXISTS (SELECT * FROM CSD WHERE Type='GIFT_OPTION' AND Value= 2 );


    \Skodkim
     
  5. mbbcam

    mbbcam Prince

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    Version 14 also seems to work for me, though I have to use the non-DLL version because I'm on a Mac. I hope the non-DLL version continues to be usable with future versions of CEP. (Though it's bound to break at some point, I guess, if development moves to the DLL version.)
     
  6. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    I don't particularly like the "influence of other civs decrease faster" effect since it's kind of a gamey and "unfun" effect. I much rather have the costs of allying go up the more allies you have or some sort of that.

    In my experience so far the CS game is often unbalanced when I don't take a big part in it myself. I play on standard size so it's often the case that Greece or Siam can 'gobble up' all the CS for themselves. If they had a competitor for those CS the situation would be different. But you can't make sure there's enough of those CS-oriented civs around all the time. Thus, I'd rather have some sort of counterbalance effect for taking too many allies ;)
     
  7. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    I agree that something like that would be a good solution. I just went for something that could easily be done with just XML edits and not requiring a DLL mod. It's just poor design in the original game and merely a small patch to try to make it better. Not everyone would like it I know. It's just a preferred gameplay style to try to make city states a little more balanced. City state allies are very powerful. They give extra food, culture, faith, or military units. Plus they help marginally in wars. Plus they give you votes in the World Congress. They also provide happiness. Those are a lot of benefits that should come with a higher cost than how the game is currently designed.
     
  8. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    This is the crux of the matter for me, the ability to turn allies against each other just before a vote is a game breaker.

    I'm not sure of the formula for map size/game speed/player level that is used to determine the needed WC votes, but there should be some sort of 'diminishing return' for the number of CSs you can ally with, ideally things like shared borders would have a part in the process too.

    The Wonders/policies etc. that give the extra votes go some way to help, but you are screwed if the one influential civ on the map also has all those benefits.

    I really hope the CSD mod becomes an easy option, removing the 'buy your ally' from the equation would make a big inroads into fixing this.
     
  9. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Shared borders have a minor effect in that it's more likely your religion will spread there and the influence gains will diminish slower. You're also more likely to be able to complete quests for the nearby CS (trade route, kill barbarians, build a road). I think this is enough of an effect really. It's rare that some random CS across the map is under my thumb without some investment in patronage or lots of gold dumped on them for some specific reason.

    The best option at the moment without CSD would be something like a era diminishing returns on gold gifts as the game continues (more gold = less influence).

    Another easier(?) option would be to bump quest rewards but decrease gold - influence trades broadly. This would also increase the value of the patronage policy that bumps it for diplomatic victory (offense/defence).
     
  10. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    That's my point exactly, except they don't fall under my thumb, but some other civ on the otherside of the map that we only came across x turns ago.

    Really how realistic is it to be an ally to a CS that you share a border with, and have been an ally for a couple of 'ERAS', to suddenly have them switch allegiance because someone offers them 1000:c5gold: or produced a Wonder or amassed X:c5culture: or :c5science:?:cry:
     
  11. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Meddling with the minor powers for favor and power is what the great powers do. It's frustrating to see it modeled as "I gave you a pile of money, please do as I desire", which is why CSD and espionage are nice touches. But it isn't that hard to see a traditional ally go by the wayside for another or for countries that share borders or are near neighbours to be hostile. I don't find it ahistorical to compete with other nations for favor of useful minor powers on the map in the great game of nations.

    Instead. I find it imbalanced mostly because gold is so effect at shifting it quickly and gold is plentiful enough to do so easily. It is not unreasonable though that a rich and powerful nation would buy off favor. The US does this frequently with things like UN votes and tiny countries nobody has heard of to assure voting positions. USA-EU-China does similar things in Africa just as the US-USSR did before. The sides are not totally fluid, but they can shift pretty rapidly. India and the US is one example here, though India is potentially a rising power rather than a CS style power. We basically bought that off. Pakistan would be another. The gold influences are sort of like packages of foreign aid/investment and those can have very strong influences on the people in power. My problem with it would be that this kind of influence is way too strong/too effective in the game.

    The amassing of culture/science/techs quests I agree are silly. Those should either go entirely or be small in influence. The "build a wonder/road" or "give me units" ones should be reasonably effective. Anything that requires you make a decision and do something positively as opposed to passively should be rewarded. These would be like gestures of good will or investment in the country.
     
  12. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    Concur with mystikx21 totally. I'd love it if gold gifts had very little influence and instead you had to rely on things that were more active quests. Something like delivering a specific unit to their territory, building a road to their city. Too bad we can't include that city state mod without a DLL.
     
  13. stackpointer

    stackpointer King

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  14. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    I'd like to bump up the effects of Spies on City States. At the moment, it seems way more valuable to use them as diplomats for the World Congress or Spies for the Technology. Maybe even make a 1-2 more available (through a policy and a late game wonder maybe? Reintroduce the UN building as a wonder with 1 Spy and 1 World Congress vote?).

    But other than that I do agree with the other points mentioned so far (but I really don't like CSD since it increases micromanagment even more...)
     
  15. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    V 15 is fully compatible too (Will propably be released as v16 soon). Just don't set USING_CEP to 2 in CSD's options file or you'll get a bug.

    \Skodkim
     
  16. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    You guys are brilliant. If you need anything else from me (if there are any changes I could make in CSD that would make continued compatibility easier) let me know.
    G
     
  17. EricB

    EricB Prince

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    I tried out the CSD mod with the communitas mod. There's a version of CSD with a DLL and without a DLL. I didn't try the DLL one since I figured it would be incompatible, is it? The non-DLL mod does work, but doesn't really give the desired game play effect. It allows you to build diplomatic units to influence city states, but you can also just use gold to buy influence. I'd like it if the gold wasn't an option. Maybe you need a DLL for that.
     
  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The DLL version is both the most current version (non-DLL development ended back in December) and compatible with CEP. Just make sure to set the compatibility options in CSD and CEP (in their options.sql files).
    G
     
  19. jacktannery

    jacktannery Prince

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    I have been trying to understand how to combine CSD and CEP for some weeks now and I am very confused! It feels like all the advice is contradictory!

    1. Which version of CSD do I download? Version 15.5 or 15.6 in this post? http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13024034&postcount=1426

    2. Do I alter the option file in CSD to '2: using CEP'? Skodim says don't do it, but Gazeba says to do it - confused!

    3. Do I alter the option file in CEP (Cat options) like this:?

    4. Am I the only person who thinks that this is incredibly fiddly? Whatever combination of options I select, I can never seem to disable gold gifts or to build diplomatic units, but I do see paper as a resource.
     
  20. skodkim

    skodkim Deity

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    Look here

    \Skodkim
     

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