[BTS] Late Game Civics & tile improvements

[scheines]

Been hung up these two questions lately:

1) Representation or universal suffrage; Which do you typically gravitate towards in a long game and why?

Obviously, rep probably shines more early-mid game (via the pyramids) for early game happiness, plus you’re often running a good number of specialists for GP. But, as the GP counter ticks higher, and you get more towns, where do you think the line is? Surely, maps play a factor, but how?

Hopefully this doesn’t devolve into a specialists vs cottage debate, since it’s clear that a middling route is best, and that neither civic is universally best.


2) Say you capture some cities, do you workshop + watermill them, or cottage them (or something else, barring special circumstance like a glove theater city), and what deciding factors are present?

 

[sampsa]

1) What exactly do you mean with a long game? Space?

2) I think cottages should be built in the BCs, at least not later than 1000AD.

 

[Pangaea]

barring special circumstance like a glove theater city)

Fits like a glove

I'll do Rep most of the time. Or Mids > Police State if going Cuirs smashing. US isn't something I particularly like. The hammer isn't that big of a deal, and rush buying is ineffective. Would probably be more inclined to go Free Speech if the empire happens to have a pile of towns.

Generally I don't do much with cities I conquer, but it depends a lot on the game, and especially if I want a long game like space games are. Then I'll typically workshop a lot. May spare towns or soon-to-be-towns, but with the AI doing marvellous stuff like town>farm>workshop>cottage, many will be poorly developed, and I'll turn them into farms and workshops as the empire transforms to a hammer economy.

Many say watermills are great, and they are, but I tend to use farms+workshops instead. Not that much teching going on in the late game anyway, and hammers are more versatile.

 

[scheines]

Yep for a long game let’s say space, UN victory, or tanks and beyond for military. Surely victory condition affects ideal civics here.

I think I’ve got the grasp of the nuance of specialists vs. cottages, but when you add hammer economy into the mix, I’m not sure how to compare.

Perhaps it depends on whether a captured city has towns / academy, and the land available? I also typically find that workshopping and farming mostly brown tiles works best, since it scales faster to add a few more workshops after biology vs cottages taking forever to mature afterwards.

 

[lymond]

Tanks? What are tanks?

"Late game" improvements in captured cities would be workshops with maybe some watermills/windmills to offset food. How "late" depends on a few things, but as Sampsa said, circa 1000AD is a decent benchmark to have Chem+Guilds+RP+State Property. But I don't need to necessarily have all those pieces in place to start considering laying down workshops to grow onto later. Cottages certainly not.

Hammer economy becomes quite strong late and really helps push one to earlier Space victories with lots of land.

US is generally weak except in a temporary rush buy phase.

 

[nate46]

I think universal suffrage is just plain bad unless you're trying to rush-buy culture buildings--is there any other use for it?

Its hard to run because it doesn't give any happiness bonus. also its high maintenance, and do I really care about hammers from towns?

The real late game debate is Representation vs Hereditary Rule... There are a lot of AIs that will give you a huge diplo bonus for hereditary rule. Its the most common "favorite civic"... It also gives the most potential happiness of any civic, which is great in games where I'm starved for luxury resources.

See this link: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/ Somebody compiled a list of the tendencies (including favorite civics) of all the AIs. If you're next to Ragnar or something and don't have any other way of dealing with him, hereditary rule is a must.

 

[dankok8]

Rarely find myself using US for rush buying. IIRC you're paying 3 gold per hammer which is a terrible conversion rate. Kremlin makes it a more reasonable 2 gold per hammer but it's rarely worth it. Rep with +3 happy and +3 beakers per specialists (you can run a lot of specs late and there's lots of multipliers...) is more worth it. As is Police State if you're going heavy on military.

 

[6K Man]

Representation>>>Universal Suckage. I don't think I've used the latter in a while. Rep vs. Hereditary Rule is a bit situational; if you have stuff like the Statue of Liberty, Rep looks a lot better. Police State when the war weariness gets really bad.

Other Civics - Caste as long as I can hold out against Emancipation unhappiness; Free Religion (especially after most AIs have made the switch); Free Speech if/when my Town count exceeds the bonuses I get from Bureaucracy; State Property as soon as I can.

When I capture AI cities I will usually build Watermills/Workshops over Farms. Occasionally I will bulldoze Cottages in favour of Mills/Shops too, if I have the spare workers and the patience to micromanage them. As was alluded to by others, it rarely makes sense to build a cottage for +1 when you can get +3 from a Workshop (and build wealth, etc).

 

[coanda]

Universal Suffrage isn't worth sitting in full-time, and isn't worth the anarchy needed to switch in and back out. If you've got no-anarchy civic swaps, brief stints of Universal Suffrage are occasionally worthwhile.

 

[6K Man]

Universal Suffrage isn't worth sitting in full-time, and isn't worth the anarchy needed to switch in and back out. If you've got no-anarchy civic swaps, brief stints of Universal Suffrage are occasionally worthwhile.

For a turn or two of rushbuying, definitely.

 

[scheines]

So it seems rep is a consensus better "general" option for peace unless you're spiritual, have the cristo redentor, or a golden age for a brief window? And police state if you're not done with domination by then. I guess that makes sense considering 3 beats 1 hammer, and the gap grows if you have beaker multipliers?

(Of course, if you're going for diplomacy, you'll use whatever gets you the votes)

 

[6K Man]

So it seems rep is a consensus better "general" option for peace unless you're spiritual, have the cristo redentor, or a golden age for a brief window? And police state if you're not done with domination by then. I guess that makes sense considering 3 beats 1 hammer, and the gap grows if you have beaker multipliers?

(Of course, if you're going for diplomacy, you'll use whatever gets you the votes)

I don't think being Spiritual or having Crisco would change my thinking that Rep or HR are the best options. Of course with Crisco, you can do civic changes galore for a round of rushbuying, to curry diplomatic favour, and to generally screw with the AIs. But you'd still want to spend most of your turns in Rep as opposed to US. PS for wartime.