Late-game strategic resources

[Arkangelus]

I was taking a look at the unit list, and it seems that pretty much every single unit from Industrial age onward requires first Oil, then Aluminium. It just seems a bit odd... early game you'll have your basic army, but supplement it with Iron-based elite units. Late on though, your entire navy and air force requires oil, plus tanks, and beyond that EVERY single unit late game needs Aluminium. If you lack it, you'll be stuck back on regular Infantry while Mech Infantry, Gunships, Stealth Bombers, Modern Armour, Missile Cruisers and Rocket Artillery all require resources. It just seems a little bit much, either we'll need HUGE Aluminium stockpiles (which we've never really fought wars over in real life, unlike Oil) or only be able to have one specialised unit of each in our Army, likely having to supplement Modern Armour and Gunship invasion forces with WW2 era bombers and battleships.

I was just pondering that first about Arabia being able to fully supply both a ground force and a Navy with double oil, but beyond that for alumnium its even worse. Beyond that, in Industrial you can sort of get by without Oil - your navy will suffer but you can make do with Infantry and Anti-tanks/AA units for defence, but beyond that if you dont have Aluminium you're utterly screwed.

 

[theis81]

I think you will see a lot more strategic ressources around this time, but compared to civ IV they will give a lot less bonus to the tile, so the real bonus is getting the ressource. Screenshots seems to confirm that.

 

[Polobo]

I wonder if there is some kind of miracle building that converts your iron resources into aluminum(-like) resources?

 

[CerberusAlpha]

hopefully there will still be ways to win the game long before the modern era

 

[The Tollan]

Just to throw this idea out there:

I wonder if it would be a good idea or not to have a standard land unit that does not require resources that is basically like the resourcesless upgrade to Infantry (Mechanized Infantry being the normal upgrade route).

Maybe something like 45 strength 2 movement or whatever stats are good. They would look a little bit more modern than Infantry.

Could possibly have a small resourceless upgrade unit to AT guns and maybe AA guns.

This would eliminate the oddity of having WW II style land units in the Modern Era.

 

[Arkangelus]

AA guns upgrade to Mobile Sams, which... require aluminium. You might be able to hold people off resourcelessly in the Industrial Age, but beyond that... there's a problem.

It just seemed a bit odd that when throughout the rest of history you'll be quite specialized with your elite units, in the modern era you've got 7 or 8 different units all competing for the same resource. Evenif you've got two sources, that'll take up your MAs, Gunships and Rocket Artillery, but you'll be stuck using B-29 bombers and Spitfires in the air.

Funnily, that might actually inadvertantly make the Zero even better. If an enemy needs to use his aluminium source to build jet fighters and counter you in the air, he'll be lacking the same sort of ground and naval power.

 

[stealth_nsk]

We don't know if AA, AT and Artillery require resources. I'd say most likely they don't. So you'll have counter units against all type of attacks even if you don't have any resources.

 

[The Tollan]

AA guns upgrade to Mobile Sams, which... require aluminium. You might be able to hold people off resourcelessly in the Industrial Age, but beyond that... there's a problem.

Yes, that is true. What I was thinking was that maybe there could be a less powerful AA unit that doesn't require resources along with the more powerful one.

Doing this would increase the amount of units a lot but would eliminate the continued presence of World War II era units when one has various technologies from recent decades.

This doesn't address any isssues regarding the extent to which aluminum is required though.

 

[Semmel]

In the modern area, almost the entire land surface will be covered by some civilization. So its likely that most of the aluminium is in the hands of the players. If you are at this stage of the game and do not have enough aluminium.. than your empire is to small

 

[stealth_nsk]

I suggest you could play with older resourceless units quite well. At least infantry is not that weak against modern armor and stuff.

 

[Ramanag]

It also seems a bit odd that we assume that, jsut because strategic resources were scarce/bunched in IV that the same will hold true in V. Instead of having/not having Al, it could be a question of having 3-5 (numbers retrieved rectally) for any reasonably-sized empire

 

[Louis XXIV]

Just to throw this idea out there:

I wonder if it would be a good idea or not to have a standard land unit that does not require resources that is basically like the resourcesless upgrade to Infantry (Mechanized Infantry being the normal upgrade route).

Maybe something like 45 strength 2 movement or whatever stats are good. They would look a little bit more modern than Infantry.

I would suggest Marines, since they were removed from the game. Basically, a solid, resource free combat unit that doesn't require resources like Mech Infs.

That being said, if you don't own a resource at this point and can't trade for one for at least limited use, you deserve to have problems.

 

[Ahriman]

I was very surprised that Mech Inf are listed as requiring Aluminium. I would have assumed that they would be resourceless. Otherwise, they are dominated by modern armor as soon as these are available.

 

[12agnar0k]

Ofcourse all the modern units will require resources, that is what modern warfare is about, you cant just stick a gun in someones hand (which wouldnt require many resources, you could probably make one out of wood) and then send them into the field, if you need to bring in modern armour, mechanised infantry, combat chopers and jet's you will need all the various strategic resources, their definitely shouldnt be any resource free units at the end game, because all technological advancements in warfare take up heaps of resources.

 

[Xetal]

I like to goal of limited resources that the new system is trying to push.

I think the implementation is absolutely terrible. Somehow you can build new aluminum units faster if your units die faster? No uranium for nuclear subs? No uranium for modern aircraft carriers or cruisers? Oil is needed for fighters, but not jet fighters? No iron (to make steel) is required for anything modern?

The whole system looks very poorly thought out and designed to me.

 

[Ahriman]

their definitely shouldnt be any resource free units at the end game, because all technological advancements in warfare take up heaps of resources.

I think this argument is ridiculous. The question is not: "do modern military units in reality need resources".

The question is "do they need resources that are represented by a specific rare strategic resource, over and above the normal resources abstracted away into hammers and gold maintenance upkeep, as produced by your factories".

There should be a generic military unit in every age that is resourceless (spearmen, mustkets, rifles, infantry). Strategic resources should dictate the composition of the army (eg common spearmen with some elite swordsmen and cavalry), not the total army size.

I would be amazed if they had mechinf require aluminium, it would be against their whole design principle (and would instantly obsolete come modern armor).

No iron (to make steel) is required for anything modern?

Its not that iron isn't needed. Its that by the modern age, iron is so massively available that it isn't a strategic limiting resource anymore. Its very easy to buy on the world market, and military uses of iron are tiny compared to civilian use in construction materials and factories.

Strategic resources are meant to represent resources that are rare for their age. In WW2, oil shortage was a huge strategic deal. Now, oil is so common and easy to get; its an economic commodity, not really a strategic one.

 

[12agnar0k]

I think its okay, but it would have made more sense, for somethings to require two or more types of resource. Say a tank, it needs Iron and Oil, and later, Alliminium and Oil, but I guess they have gone with the less realistic decision and limited everything to just 1 resource unit where applicable. However this is more beneficial for gameplay. No need to protect your old strategic resources anymore as you move on to better and more important resources. Why keep up the important of say Iron, much later in the game. Although I wouldn't have minded either way.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Resources may still be needed for certain buildings (Coal for Factories for example)

 

[The Tollan]

I was very surprised that Mech Inf are listed as requiring Aluminium. I would have assumed that they would be resourceless. Otherwise, they are dominated by modern armor as soon as these are available.

Yes, this is quite suprising.

Perhaps Modern Armor, Helicopters, Jet Fighters, and some other units will end up taking both Oil and Aluminum in the final version of the game. Making Mechanized Infantry resourceless, as you note, is another option (and it seemed the most likely option).

Right now it looks like it is way better to use aluminum on Modern Armor than Mechanized Infantry. Helicopters would be a lot better too since they have 50 strength and a large bonus against armored units. Nonethless, I think that the developers will likely realize if a very large balance problem exists and probably will take action to correct it. I've seen some underpowered units in my time playing Civ but I don't think the developers will ultimately let Mechanized Infantry be left to the wayside too badly in Civ V.

I hope that Paratroopers aren't considered the standard resourceless unit of the Modern Era.

 

[Arkangelus]

In the ancient and classical ages though, even through to Industrial with Oil, this will really add to gameplay. You have your core of Archers and Spearmen, and the Swordsmen are elite, but require resources. its worth declaring war to get your hands on more strategic resources, which powers up your army, etc. The problem I had is that by the modern age, when just EVERYTHING requires aluminium, its deviated from that formula quite a lot. Two sources within your own borders will probably only allow you to have one or two of each of the 8 or so specialised late game units, but it doesnt seem like they're even going to be the elite ones to stand alongside the resourceless ones.

Iron/Horses give you elite troops that go alongside your core mass of units. Oil stretches things further since navy is SO dependant on it, but essentially it lets you augment your infantry forces with elite tanks. Once you get up another level though, the whole dynamic is off, its just everything requires aluminium and to supplement those troops, you have to go back a generation to the oil-fired ones. If you only have one or two sources inside your borders, you'll have to go out and capture more (of a resource that theres never been a real-world shortage or conflict over) using an army thats got F-22s supported by Shermans, or MLRS and Apaches getting offshore support from the Bismarck.