Lavra is a superb district

[indradiva]

My post seems to have gone unnoticed so here I repeat the info: From what I have learnt from the National Parks thread, all Holy Sites do increase the Appeal of all surrounding tiles by +1. For Lavra it means that it has three effects:
-It adds Faith
-It increases the Appeal in your city
-It helps you grow your territory with GP
And it also has the privileges from being a UD.
With all of this it means that Russia will be able to easily raise the Appeal in all of its cities, which in turn leads to more housing from Neighbourhoods and to Sea Resorts and National Parks, that give you tourism. So Lavras not only help you with religious victory but also indirectly with cultural victory. And with building high-population cities.
So now, who will not want to have such a good district in all of one's cities?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

It is not one tile per great person, it is one tile per great person useage. Many great persons have more then one use so they would give multiple tiles.

Many other UD comes with disadvantages but not the Lavra.

 

[Big J Money]

Very few people will ever agree that the Lavra is good. Having a unique holy district is good, yes. What the Lavra specifically adds to the game is piddly. But that's maybe okay since Cossacks and land in new cities are great.

My suggested change would be, when Russia uses a Great Person, all cities with Lavras gain 1 tile.

 

[MACKA0ili]

It also is the earliest unique district to be unlocked, which is a pretty big deal if you think about it. Having your unique district in the ancient era is a huge boost and civs that start with early bonuses are top tier (at least in civ 5).

 

[indradiva]

Very few people will ever agree that the Lavra is good. Having a unique holy district is good, yes. What the Lavra specifically adds to the game is piddly. But that's maybe okay since Cossacks and land in new cities are great.

My suggested change would be, when Russia uses a Great Person, all cities with Lavras gain 1 tile.

Haven't you read the OP? Lavra is already very powerful, because it gives you +1 Appeal in surrounding tiles and it is spammable everywhere. So you will have no problems with housing and be able to build a lot of National Parks.

 

[gunnergoz]

If Russia sticks to Tundra, it will be a religious force to be reckoned with as its numerous cities' Lavra monastery districts go online. What's not clear is if tundra can be farmed in this instance. But even if tundra can't be farmed, if you settle on the tundra line and not entirely in the tundra (unless there are plentiful bonus/food resources within the tundra) you should do well building farms below the tundra line. A lot of thought went into studying Russian history when devising this civilization and leader.

 

[MadDjinn]

enh?

one extra hex (which is the only real special thing mentioned) if you use a great person in that particular city... not 'good'.

Sure it's a UD so fast religion/spam religion, but all other things you mention are holy site bonuses, so not unique at all.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

It is worth to mention if Russia go astrology first it is very likely to get the first pathernon.

 

[MadDjinn]

It is worth to mention if Russia go astrology first it is very likely to get the first pathernon.

Didn't think the pantheon was related to tech.

Obviously the great prophets are (need holy site/lavra for that, or stonehenge).

 

[SpaceCommunist]

I disagree. Having a unique district is good, yes - but the Lavra itself, for all it brings to the table (one tile per Great Person being expended, or perhaps just one charge - still not great) is laughable, and also painful considering that there could be so many other UIs instead that would provide a better bonus. The moment a DLC civ comes in with a unique Holy Site of its own, the Lavra will be completely forgotten.

Furthermore, I'd like to argue that Japan's absolutely non-unique Holy Sites are more powerful than the Lavra can ever hope to be.

Japan more than likely has a coastal start bias, and may very well end up on islands depending on how different starting biases are in the game. Regardless, Hojo provides a defensive bonus along the coast, so the Japanese should at least have some measure of defending themselves - Russia does not. Hojo also gets to build Encampments, Holy Sites, and Theatre Squares at half the normal time, just as the Lavra, as a unique district, can.

However, Japan's national ability adds an additional adjacency bonus to districts adjacent to one another. This means, in addition to the +0.5 yield from adjacent districts, Japan gets +1 of that same yield under the same conditions, granting a total of +1.5, or +3 for every two districts adjacent to a third one. Whereas Russia needs to build up pop to utilize the Faith from Tundra, Japan can just plop down a Holy Site quickly next to some other districts, particularly Encampments for quick building and extra defense (again, something Russia lacks), and gain just as much, if not more, Faith than Russia can initially acquire.

And even with all that, Japan still hasn't had to utilize their unique infrastructure. The Electronics Factory will come later in the game, but for now, even without their UI, Japan has outdone Russia by far in acquiring a religion, getting defense, and generating Faith.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Japan and Russia, two different civs.

 

[ehecatzin]

The Lavra itself is not that great, however it has very good synergy with the rest of Russia's bonus, as pointed out before, if Russia is builds a lot Lavras on tundra is going to be a faith powerhouse.

 

[Inhalaattori]

One thing to remember is that there is this following Pantheon that Russia in most cases will get if it wants:
Dance of the Aurora: Holy Site district get +1 Faith from adjacent Tundra tiles.

So Russia can create enormous amounts of faith with tundra cities. What it needs to grow these cities is internal trade routes, which also means that they will not get any benefit from their LUA.

As a follower belief they should in most cases get:
Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide Food equal to their intrinsic Faith output

I think its possible that Russia has been OP in their play tests and the way they are trying to balance this Civ is trying to make their UU, UI and LUA weaker.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

I think its possible that Russia has been OP in their play tests and the way they are trying to balance this Civ is trying to make their UU, UI and LUA weaker.

Seems strange to me because they are not weak.

 

[Red Menace]

The Lavra itself is not that great, however it has very good synergy with the rest of Russia's bonus, as pointed out before, if Russia is builds a lot Lavras on tundra is going to be a faith powerhouse.

I can see the Russian Dance of the Aurora combo already, the faith will be intense.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Getting the pathernon requires 25 faith and the sooner you get that faith the more choices you will have. Having an early holy district could be a huge deal in what choices you get then you pick your pathernon.

At the same time we may look into the other civs UD and we will see they are not all that amazing either.

UB are generally more powerful then UD but they come later and have base price.

 

[SpaceCommunist]

Japan and Russia, two different civs.

...and? How does that weaken Japan's ability to acquire a strong early religion over Russia? Japan, with their bonuses towards infrastructure, seem oriented towards almost every victory type (religion with holy sites, domination with encampments, culture with theatre square and electronics factory), whereas Russia seems limited particularly to a wide religious game of trying to purchase Great People before everyone else (something difficult to do with Japan's early religion and faith from adjacency bonuses, as well as Brazil being in the game).

It would be so much better if Russia got some kind of infrastructure or production bonus instead of using an entire unique on a Holy Site replacement. They should've just gotten an intrinsic Holy Site production bonus in their UA/LA instead (wouldn't work with LA though, Peter did start the secularization of Russia if I'm correct).

 

[indradiva]

enh?

one extra hex (which is the only real special thing mentioned) if you use a great person in that particular city... not 'good'.

Sure it's a UD so fast religion/spam religion, but all other things you mention are holy site bonuses, so not unique at all.

So what? It's the combination that is important. Nobody else can spam an Appeal-improving district so easily (well, except Brazil, Japan, and Greece to some extent)

 

[Seek]

It is not one tile per great person, it is one tile per great person useage. Many great persons have more then one use so they would give multiple tiles.

I think this bears repeating, many Great Artists even have three uses.

The biggest issue as I see it, is that one cannot choose which tile the city expands to.

 

[Halcyan2]

Haven't you read the OP? Lavra is already very powerful, because it gives you +1 Appeal in surrounding tiles and it is spammable everywhere. So you will have no problems with housing and be able to build a lot of National Parks.

The problem is that the appeal is inherently part of a Holy Site, NOT anything special about the Lavra.