1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Law 1. My vote for least useful spell in the game?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Cuteunit, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. Cuteunit

    Cuteunit Danse Macabre

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    618
    Frankly if you're not at war with Balseraphs, Law 1 is pretty fail. Even then...
    I'd rather it added -10% city maintenance or something.

    That's my vote. What do YOU think is the least useful spell in FFH?
     
  2. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    589
    Err... What about Balseraphs? Law 1 is loyality, unit dies instead of converting. Right?

    Converting are possible by
    1. Defeated by unit with Command promotion: Inquisitors, armageddon horsemen...
    2. Domination spell.
    3. Dragon's roar.
    4. Maybe unit marked with enemy religion can betray?

    And there are ways to become barbarian:
    5. Enraged.
    6. Spell Chaos III.

    I do not know if Loyality works against 5,6 but ist may be useful when Avatar of Wrath enters the Erebus. Not very nice to have an army of strong barb units in the middle of your empire.

    Still I did not meet situation when this spell was evidently useful. :)

    Edit: BTW if you have Barbarian trait you can protect barbs against Magnadine and For the Horde with this spell. :)
     
  3. NeoParn

    NeoParn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11
    Loyalty should, (at least it has in the past) cause your enraged units to die. I don't know if it has any effect on units spawning slaves when they are defeated (with Slavery civ or by a taskmaster). If it does, it would be handy against the Balseraphs.

    I'd actually like to see some way to prevent your units’ souls for going to the infernals/mecurians, weather with this spell or another. It might not make a good deal of sense for Law I, (and I’m sure some would feel that it was too powerful for a T1 spell) but it would make me far more likely to use it. :)
     
  4. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,589
    Location:
    Location! Location!
    Dimensional, Enchantment, Mind, Spirit & Body Summoning are all useless.

    Dimensional Sorcery 2, also useless.


    As for actual spells: I kinda find water walking to be pretty pointless. Standard units just do not have enough move for the open sea. But on a map with small breaks between landmasses, it wouldn't be so horrible. So that one is just due to my Fractal maps typical layouts. If this could be cast on other units it might be a bit better. Same with Stoneskin...
     
  5. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    589
    Once I posted this idea and Kael replied that WW is good for mage to attack with some destructive spells from the safe water tile. For example with Tsunami. There are no assasins on the sea. I can get that reason but it is too specific - I did never use such trick. And assuming that you are in the sea (not in the lake) near enemy city you still need a good protection against enemy ships. And if you have protection that mean usually that you have even a transport.
     
  6. kumquatelvis

    kumquatelvis Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    310
    Water walking OO priests worked out great for me. Of course, they start with the spell, which helps.
     
  7. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,589
    Location:
    Location! Location!
    Aye, as anti-assassin it is great, but that only really works for cities that are NEARLY coastal, but not quite (otherwise they have a Navy, and you have no defense at all, so no need for an assassin's marksman... unless you brought along a Conjurer somehow to keep a Djinn on you... but the conjurer can't waterwalk...). So I guess that is somewhat only a situational ability fo when you happen to have a lake near someone's city. I can see the argument, but I agree with you that it doesn't quite hold up in actual practice sadly.

    Now, if you couldn't cast spells normally while on a boat... then it'd be pretty nice so you could sit on a transport with some destroyers protecting you and rain down fiery justice... but as it is any mage can do that one. :(

    Back on the weak spell subject, I've personally NEVER used Rage, Defile, Ressurection or Revelation. The last only because it is new really though, I imagine it isn't too great though since you can use a Hawk to find invis units. I think I remember hearing that it can also reveal the nationality of HN units though.... if that is the case it is pretty awesome.
     
  8. Cuteunit

    Cuteunit Danse Macabre

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    618
    1: if the enemy has Inquisitors then your 3 str adept with law 1 isnt a big help in either case. Besides, he can only have 3 inquis.

    2: same goes for your Mind 3 and Chaos 3 examples. Dragon's roar is hardly worth mentioning, how many dragons arein the game.. 3? and only ever one at a time.

    I'm not saying it's NEVER useful, I said least. It's only good in a very few situations and then it doesnt help you in a nice general way to move forward, it just prevents falling back in those few situations.
     
  9. Cuteunit

    Cuteunit Danse Macabre

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    618
    100% agreed about water walking and stoneskin being caster-only severely limiting their appeal. As in, I never bother.
     
  10. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

    Joined:
    May 23, 2007
    Messages:
    589
    Loyality is casted to all units in stack :p so you need only one adept with law I to be sure that no one your unit ever betray you. And in my last game I gained with Domination Wilboman and two grigori heroes (in addition to many other enemy units). I know that AI can not use Domination. :) But if it was able to use Law I, I had more problems.

    And Avatar of Wrath is really a problem anyways, no?
     
  11. Caradoc

    Caradoc Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,010
    As I see it, the problem here is trying to force fit spells into the magic system within the constraints of what is actually possible in the game. Given the limited set of attributes to be manipulated, it's really impressive that so many spells have been formulated. It's not surprising that some are losers. There are just too many types of Mana for three good spells at each level.

    If I were to attempt an overhaul, I'd get rid of Summoning altogether and spread a few more summoning spells into the Sorcery and Divine categories. I'd pare down the varieties of Mana, dropping Sun, Shadow, Dimensional, Enchantment, and Entropy while again cherry picking the good spells for the remaining types. Then I'd see about attaching spell casting abilities to objects.
     
  12. kioras

    kioras Daemon Quellor

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2007
    Messages:
    54
    Get ruins of kilmorph, throw on loyalty on your units, and then cast burning blood. instant relaible blitzkrieg force
     
  13. Nikis-Knight

    Nikis-Knight Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,636
    Location:
    Orange County, CA
    I don't think stoneskin is caster only. It's is quite nice, from my recollection.

    That sounds nasty, but they should still die if they would have gone barb, right?

    eh? It isn't to kill the Inqy, but to keep your units from joining them. So the 3 str is irrelevant, it is the odd 12 str unit that loses that you want to keep from enemy hands.

    But here is another case where I wouldn't mind seeing another small bonus added. Such as half WW when a loyalty unit dies, or something similar.
     
  14. Goodgimp

    Goodgimp Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
    Messages:
    261
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    Ooo, I really like that idea.
     
  15. Mesix

    Mesix One of Porg

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2006
    Messages:
    4,359
    Location:
    Ahch-To
    With the new crime mechanic in Shadow, perhaps having a law spell that reduces crime would be nice. It would work along the same lines as inspiration and hope. Perhaps -10 crime and +1 happy.
     
  16. vorshlumpf

    vorshlumpf Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    Messages:
    1,096
    Location:
    Victoria, BC, Canada
    Not since .25. It used to be far too powerful (it was my favourite spell), but now it's near-useless as a Tier 3 spell (still useful, but feels more like a Tier 2 spell).

    Here's my quick re-hash of the usefulness of the Tier 1 spells, 0 being completely useless and 10 being wicked-awesome (note this reflects my playing style as well as objectivity):

    9 Haste (would be a 10 if not for micromanagement)
    4 Dance of Blades
    4 Raise Skeleton
    1 Escape (not 0 only because of Amurite assassins)
    1 Wall of Stone (more like a 0.5)
    8 Enchanted Blade (would be higher if not for micromanagement)
    1 Wither
    0 Scorch
    0 Loyalty
    7 Sanctify
    8 Charm Person
    6 Treetop Defence
    5 Courage
    10 Spring
     
  17. Goodgimp

    Goodgimp Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2006
    Messages:
    261
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    EDIT: Oops, realized I was talking about Blaze, he was talking about Scorch, the sun spell.

    Scorch can be nice, actually.

    I had a huge continent stuffed full of jungle and started right smack in the middle of it, playing the Amurites. Needless to say, engulfing the continent in giant forest (jungle?) fire REALLY saved me an enormous amount of time clearing it out. It turned jungle-choked no-man's land into prime real estate.
     
  18. BCalchet

    BCalchet Human, all too human.

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    500
    Location:
    Umeå, Sweden
    Wow. Goes to show how different playing styles influence spell usefulness! Personally, I'd rate them as follows:

    7 Haste (Useful, to be sure, but never game-changing.)
    2 Dance of Blades (Eh, if I need the difference this makes, I've already lost.)
    9 Raise Skeleton (Free permanent units from adepts? Yes please!)
    8 Escape (Never lose a spellcaster again, more or less. Also stops sneak attacks in their tracks, when two dozen conjurers pop up in the capital.)
    0 Wall of Stone (Culture kills it.)
    7 Enchanted Blade (See Dance of Blades, but permanency makes it worthwile.)
    0 Wither (I'd rather kill them.)
    0 Scorch (I think that went to Sun? I'm not into sand lions, so this goes unused.)
    6 New Fire I spell (Massive micro-free deforestation, yes please.)
    5 Loyalty (If nothing else, because it makes werewolves and other enraged units usable.)
    2 Sanctify (Meh. Too little impact to prevent the counter from going up once it's started.)
    2 Charm Person (Handy, but only when I'm much too weak to handle whatever needs charming - I'd rather deal with the problem now, if possible.)
    2 Treetop Defence (See Dance of Blades.)
    7 Courage (Just plain good, and attacking dragons requires it.)
    8 Spring (The only counter for deserts, of course it's useful.)
    0~9 Fair Winds (If I'm using boats, it's a 9. If not, a 0.)
     
  19. Cuteunit

    Cuteunit Danse Macabre

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2007
    Messages:
    618
    I forgot about sanctify. That one might be even less useful.
     
  20. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2007
    Messages:
    10,589
    Location:
    Location! Location!

Share This Page