Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Westwall, Sep 5, 2015.
Ok, but besides patrol boats and upgrades for pre-existing units, what else can hover?
Patrol Boats, Gunboats, Submarines (the aquatics), Tier 3/4 Combat Rovers, LEV Tanks, LEV Destroyers, the S/H ultimate Aquillon and perhaps the H/P Throne which seems to be an ultimate.
With RT coming, it kind of bothers me that the high-end supremacy walkers don't "count" as hover units, it'd be totally awesome if they could walk underwater, plus it would absolutely suit the whole "capable of withstanding any environment" Supremacy is motivated by. Oh well.
That's actually a really cool idea imho, but I don't think that representing them as "hovering" units would really work - because I can't see how units that walk on the ground of a sea could fight against stuff that is crossing the sea. I'd rather give them invisibility in water and make them maintain their full movement instead.
Alternately, a reflection of the tendency for people who deviate culturally or ideologically from whatever norms exist in a society to create enclaves and gather in like-minded communities.
Well ANGEL's could totally walk underwater, they're big enough to walk on canyons, the kind of unit it is would be classified as Massive or as a secondary it would be Submersible, if they allow it to walk underwater it would still look awesome, it would retain its movement with maybe reduced visibility depending on depth, and it wouldn't be allowed to attack of course.
Really there's reason to allow all three top-end units to traverse water; Purity's hovers, the ANGEL can just walk and Xeno-titans are based off Mantis Shrimp DNA so I'd imagine they can swim.
I was actually really impressed with the depth they went into with the hybrid affinities. I figured it was just going to be a way to let you be a little more flexible about your path through the tech web, since the current system forces you to be pretty linear. But it looks like they've spent a lot more time and effort on it than that, and this will really shakeup the gameplay plan. It will be way more nonlinear now, and there will be a huge number of potential game plans I can come up with on my way to the finish.
One thing to point out - early on the devs said that there would be ways to reach the victory conditions using hybrid affinities. They didn't talk about the victory conditions at all in the video, but I have trouble believing they'd put this much effort into developing mixed affinities if you'd just have to get 13 points in a pure affinity to go for a victory condition anyway. So I am holding out hope they are going to revisit that aspect, and we will see changes that will make mixed affinity playthroughs more viable in the end game.
Plus the units really do look great, and introducing support units is such a good idea I'm wondering why it's never been introduced in previous games. (Even if the implementation here turns out to be humdrum, I can imagine thiis will lead to some pretty cool mods.) Overall it sounds like the unit changes they're introducing (which hopefully will extend to some of the pure affinity units too, otherwise they're getting really overshadowed by these new ones) will drastically change the way combat works, especially in MP, which is where we'll see them being used most effectively and creatively. My only worries are that the AI probably won't know how to use them well, and that some of them, like the line-of-site blocking ultimate unit, come way too late to see much action. But the midtier ones certainly will.
Overall, after that livestream I am way more excited about RT than I was before, and I was already pretty excited to try out the new diplomacy system. I'd say between this, diplomacy and the new water terrain there is absolutely enough new content to merit a full expansion. The game will still likely have a lot of balance flaws, but I'll feel like I've gotten $30 worth for sure.
To the original article's whinging about lack of hybrid cities: seriously? They developed kickass unit models for nearly 20 new units, and all you can do is ask "well what about..." SupremacyKing's exactly right in calling those folks "ungrateful." I'd go in for "entitled," too.
The devs said themselves that they designed the hybrid affinities to be truly "hybrid", meaning you'd end up with some pure affinity units and buildings mixed in with your hybrid ones. If you go for Supremacy-Purity you'll still have access to CNDRs and Battlesuits along the way, and you'll be able to choose t3 units and perks of each type. In that system having cities mix designs between multiple affinities makes sense.
I mean the game has a lot of gaping flaws in terms of gameplay and balancing that I've criticized as much as anyone, but I've got to say I can't see how anyone still complaining about the art could ever be satisfied. The game looks great imo, exactly like what I want from an immersive scifi sandbox.
Taking Zoe's points, my only disappointment would be no hybrid planes (I've been told this by some of you already).
As for more depth, I think they got the depth just fine. Don't see why they'd need more. Maybe the single affinity builds need some unique abilities too, beside the passive perks, preferably the unique units that are barely used. For example: AEGIS, CARVR, rocktopus. And maybe also dividing aircraft into fighters and bombers rather than gradually picking one of the 2 using affinities and perks.
They certainly did go into a lot of depth. Which, as GenEngineer pointed out, is why not going all the way and having things like hybrid air units seems all the more glaring. It's like instead of giving us just a rough sketch, the went ahead and gave us a near complete, full-color jigsaw puzzle... and then left out the final 2-3 pieces for reasons we know not why.
Also a legit concern.
They've given us enough. The hybrid affinity units are the most original thing in Civilization in terms of unit since the change to 1-unit per tile and 100hp. I absolutely love the originiality each hybrid unit has.
What else do you want that actually contributes directly to gameplay?
The only thing I can agree with is adding unique abilities to pure affinity uniques.
Hybrid victories and hybrid air units/carriers.
As stated previously many, many times.
I definitely hope these units get the love they deserve.... And that the mid tier mixed units don't get put out on t4 techs so they never see any action.
The air units could use some work too. I'm hoping that that's coming in a later expansion, along with upgrades to the orbital units. I'd love to see multiple types of air units, even 3 or 4 - with support units now, I can definitely think of some very cool options for dropping supplies/heals on nearby troops. As well as ground based anti aircraft units - I've always thought artillery should have a late game perk that gives it interception capabilities.
The biggest issue with these units is not their abilities, but rather where they sit on the tech tree (well, actually the Rocktopus has major issues since using it offensively it almost impossible and it's slower than a Sloth on sodium pentothal). If that aspect was fixed we'd see them a lot more. Hell, Xenocavalry show up a fair bit and yet there's nothing that really makes them particularly useful given that upgraded armour fills much the same role. It's just that they sit in a useful section of the tech tree for a Harmony player.
I don't think we necessarily need hybrid carriers now that I think about it - In order for them to work, they'd need 3 all new perks that would represent the Hybrid affinities that feel distinct from the ones already present (Autoheal, bonus plane strength, bonus range). As for planes, while I'd certainly like to have them and would download a mod to add them in a heartbeat if necessary, but I'm more concerned with knowing why their missing than demanding they be added, like when a puzzle piece is missing and it's more important to know where it is than to finish. Hybrid victories are more a philosophical point for me, wondering what they would be and how they would distinguish them from their parents. Hybrid cities, on the other hand, are another thing that I'd download a mod for if it's available and not in the base game, but I probably wouldn't really miss it if I had to do without it.
I do think that, with the advent of this uniqueness for the Hybrid units, the original ones need a second look. I agree that all of the 'Ultimate' units should be amphibious, even if it's just the 'shallow' waters and not the deep ocean trenches. What's more, giving the units their unique bonus from upgrading at base would do a lot to bring them more in line, like the Aegis extra attack and ability to move after attacking, CARVR's bonus near a friendly unit, etc... As it currently is, most of the unique units are just better marines that cost a resource, making them lose some of the WOW factor.
Moving them on the tech tree is something I have wanted for a while, since it seems to me that there is no reason to even use the Affinity 9 units given that Affinity 11 are easier to acquire and therefore come faster. Just adjusting where they are so that, generall speaker, you unlock them in the order of the affinity would do a world of good. EDIT: Except SABR. Not sure if it needs moving, but artillery range tends to be good enough for me to warrant considering it later in the game. Again, that's something that it has special though, so giving something like that to all of the units would help.
Finally, one point not mentioned that I would like to see, moreso than hybrid victories or hybrid cities, are hybrid buildings. The units are definitely impressive, and if the nature of hybrid units did not change between now and release, I would personally still be happy with it, but I hope they don't neglect the peaceful side of the affinities. Seeing each affinities spin on the yields, having them value different basic resources differently, it went a long way to defining the affinities as philosophies instead of just mechanics.
This is so very true!
So very true.
I sincerely doubt adding a handful of building and unit models for hybrid carriers, air units, and cities would have broken the bank.
It's just half-baked.
In my opinion it makes absolutely no sense for the Angel to be able to walk in the Ocean.
Ideally floating above water would be more exclusively a Purity thing, while the other affinities received more differentiation.
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