Leader Discussion - Himiko, High Shaman

[disjointaccount]

Another double bill and another buff recipient now - Himiko, High Shaman (or, culture Himiko).
Her leader ability is Miko of Amaterasu, which is a three-parter:

• +2 Happiness per Age on Happiness and Diplomacy Buildings, doubled if a Building is both
• +50% Production towards constructing Happiness and Diplomacy Buildings, doubled if a Building is both
• +20% Culture but -10% Science. These effects are doubled during a Celebration

Her attributes are Cultural and Diplomatic, giving her access to the Cultural Exchange and Local Festival endeavors, along with events for attribute points upon researching Mysticism and Astronomy (per this post).
She has no starting bias.
Playing as Himiko unlocks Majapahit (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Pearls or having at least 3 naval trade routes) and Hawaii (otherwise unlocked by having 2 settlements on landmasses no larger than 15 tiles) in the Exploration Age, and Meiji Japan (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Tea) and Siam (otherwise unlocked by having 4 Temples or improving 3 Ivory) in the Modern Age.
As an AI leader, her agenda is Shaman Queen - Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount per Settlement with constructed Science and Gold Buildings. Increase Relationship by a Small Amount per Settlement with Culture and Happiness Buildings.

So what are everyone's thoughts? Likes/dislikes? Strengths and weaknesses? Fun strategies? Good civs to pair her with?

 

[Leucarum]

I've player her once and the science malus felt horrible. It's less bad in Civ7 than it would be in any other Civ, but I really didn't enjoy this side of Himiko.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I don't own this leader so I don't know how good or bad she truly is.

THAT said, I expect her to be worse than the other Himiko persona. -20% Science during a Celebration is huge when you're also stacking Celebrations on the basis of high happiness. The Culture is nice, but that unlocks only Wonders. Units and most buildings are in the Science tree, not the Civic one.

My instinct is that you're supposed to play her with Science Civs specifically to offset the malus that she has, or else you'll fall hopelessly behind on military, and that might be too much of a hazard. Maybe Maurya is the play here - convert that excess Happiness into Science and Gold, so that you can buy Libraries in your towns, and then convert as many towns as you can to get Mathas and Academies.

 

[Navelgazer]

Y’all, Shaman Himiko is seriously A or S-Tier. Playing with a science civ helps, for sure, but having that much culture gain (in a game where culture is paramount) is just wildly good, and good enough that the science malus doesn’t really matter. In every game I’ve played with her, I’ve quickly outstripped my rivals in both culture and science, because the culture lead helps with so much.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Try to make her work. Like the other Himiko more

 

[disjointaccount]

Yeah I'm kind of surprised by the lukewarm attitudes towards her. She's possibly the strongest culture leader in the game, imo. Even just the third bullet point of her leader ability alone would probably have her in A tier, for me. Crazy happiness and culture, and the science penalty isn't too hard to mitigate enough to stay competitive. Pair her with a culture civ for absolute cultural domination or with a scientific civ for a very strong all-rounder.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Civ is the only franchise I know of where people will try and downplay a +40% modifier.

 

[socratic]

Pairing her with Mexico is the sole reason I’ll play until Modern. +70% Culture is so crazy, reminds me of a even more broken Pericles

 

[bengalryan9]

Put me in the camp that wasn't super impressed with her.

In antiquity I think she struggles the most... sure the extra culture should help you unlock wonders faster but in my experience you're still going to have a tough time completing the cultural legacy path on higher difficulties because that one is just so much harder than any of the others anyways. The science malus is going to give you an uphill climb to complete the other paths unless you specifically pick a civ that can counteract it... but in that case, why not just pick that civ with a different leader and get there even faster/easier?

I think she gets better as the game goes on, but again I don't think it really helps her to achieve cultural victory at all - religion and explorers come so early in the cultural tree that you're likely to have no issue getting the relics you need with or without the big 20/40% bonuses. It'll help you get to hegemony a little faster if you need that, I guess, but I don't think that's the be all end all.

The one time I played as her it was struggle. I'll give her another chance at some point but she's not exactly high on my list right now.

 

[Leucarum]

I didn't enjoy her, but I certainly think she's powerful. Civ7 is very much a game about stacking your choice of bonus, and culture is as good a choice as any... I don't enjoy the culture path after antiquity though... And while culture helps with any victory style, I think the malus just annoys me. I also don't like the Mughals.

 

[Menocchio]

I'll admit that the -20% science malus (and how on the surface her other persona seems so much better) made me avoid her up til now, but this thread has made me want to give her a go! Maybe starting with Assyria would be a great combo?

 

[pjotroos]

Admittedly, I only play on Immortal, so this might change on the highest difficulty - but I definitely felt like the Science malus mattered more than the Culture boost the one time I played as her.

Beyond a certain point, extremely high culture just means tons of future civics. It will end the era quicker, if that's what you're after, but high culture doesn't even contribute to your culture victory paths directly to the same extent science does. Meanwhile, you need science to access most of the buildings and all of the units. You need it for crossing the ocean in Exploration and building the factories in Modern. You need it to actually unlock the culture buildings. And playing with science civs to offset the malus means that you're not playing with culture civs that multiply the bonus.

She's fine if you want to see how much Culture per turn you can print, but that's the one trick the pony has. An S-tier leader is one that's viable for any victory type, and she's actively detrimental to most of them. She's firmly middle of the pack for me. Not Emperor Napoleon or Jose Rizal bad, but nowhere near Xerxes, Confucius, or even the other Himiko.

 

[UWHabs]

I'll admit that the -20% science malus (and how on the surface her other persona seems so much better) made me avoid her up til now, but this thread has made me want to give her a go! Maybe starting with Assyria would be a great combo?

I just finished a game with her and Assyria, and yeah, I didn't necessarily notice the malus. You're getting lots of happiness, which is great if you run over the settlement limit, I'm not sure I ever had a settlement below 0 happiness all game.

I would agree with photroos that at some level, the culture bonus doesn't really help as much. Like it's great to get through your civs' civics, and the basic few items, but you still get beaten to the late culture wonders. In exploration I went Majapahit as well, so was definitely putting out absolutely looney culture totals by the end. I also couldn't figure out in celebrations if I wanted to lean into the culture more, or if I wanted to balance with a science boost.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Surprising Silla is not her recommended Civ, as it’s both regional and it unique buildings lean into her play.
Also goes well with newer Civs Tonga and Qajar

 

[marius_kaparius]

I paired her with Tonga and at first the science was a struggle but after learning to prioritize reefs and science from goody huts I cranked out enough science to make the Economy and Diplomatic aspects go well. I’d say a subtle but fun combo that can eventually snowball. I had a very high number of city states by the end of the age and had almost picked all the bonuses available. On to Hawaii

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Yes! The key to High Shaman is to get those flat science bonuses from good huts and narrative events