Leader Discussion - Lafayette

[disjointaccount]

Continuing on from a super interesting thread last time, next up is Lafayette.
His leader ability is Hero of Two Worlds, which is a three-parter:

• Gains a unique Endeavor, Reform, which grants an additional Social Policy slot. Supporting this Endeavor also grants the other Leader an additional Social Policy slot
• +1 Combat Strength for every Tradition, but not Social Policy, slotted in the Government
• +1 Culture and Happiness per Age in Settlements, doubled in Distant Lands

His attributes are Cultural and Diplomatic, giving him access to the Cultural Exchange and Local Festival endeavors, along with events for attribute points upon researching Chiefdom and Cartography (per this post).
He has a starting bias for coastal terrain.
Playing as Lafayette unlocks Normans (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Iron or having 5 ancient walls) and Spain (otherwise unlocked by recapturing a lost settlement) in the Exploration Age, and America (otherwise unlocked by having three Distant Lands settlements in plains or grassland) and France (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Wine) in the Modern Age.
As an AI leader, his agenda is French Quarters - Increase Relationship by a Small Amount for the player with the most Urban Districts with all Building slots filled. Decrease Relationship by a Small Amount for the player with the least Urban Districts.

So what are everyone's thoughts? Likes/dislikes? Strengths and weaknesses? Fun strategies? Good civs to pair him with?

 

[Leucarum]

His CS buff is really good. The extra culture and happiness is small and not going to rewrite the course of your game. His endeavour is maybe a little too pricey but the CS is what sells him so that's all fine.

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

I am not the right person to evaluate Lafayette as my runs with him have been more experimental where I have been trying civs that are probably not optimal for him. That said, my impression of him is that he starts the game very slowly and eventually scales up to be scary to fight against. Going with the likely intended path of Rome -> Norman -> France gives a potential 13 Combat Strength, but you don't get it right away and lose it all at the end of an age, making his special endeavor somewhat important (even as you don't really want to use it that often since you want to save that influence for wars). Further complicating the question of what is Lafayette's ideal gameplan is that a lot of the Roman Traditions aren't the best at the moment you receive them (though some do get stronger as the game progresses) and the Norman ones, while good are individually weaker to make up for getting 5 of them. Keeping all of this in mind it might be safer to think of Lafayette as having an average buff of 2 CS in Antiquity, 5 CS in Exploration, and 8 CS in Modern (these are estimates and are most certainly wrong, but have been helping me to set more realistic expectations). Those are incredible military buffs in in of themselves, but can leave him feeling lacking in the early game where it can matter the most, while being a menace late when there is a time crunch. They also compare decently with other military leaders like Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, etc, but those other leaders have other abilities in addition that are also quite strong (while having different restrictions on that combat strength).

All of this to say, I have no idea how to properly evaluate Lafayette at this time. What are y'all's experiences/thoughts?

 

[Siptah]

Does anyone else have the impression that the Endeavour is bugged? When I played him (very recently), I used the Endeavour a few times and this seemed to work as intended and expected. However, I also had some celebrations that were not falling together with the Endeavour that unlocked two policy slots at once. I never encountered this before, so I assumed this has to do with Lafayette in some way. Anyone else had a similar experience

because of this potential bug, any antiquity civ with many traditions works well. And Normans and Spain also work very well to get to super good CS bonuses. If you have 20 policy slots, you just slot all traditions you can grab during a war.

 

[uppi]

I am not the right person to evaluate Lafayette as my runs with him have been more experimental where I have been trying civs that are probably not optimal for him. That said, my impression of him is that he starts the game very slowly and eventually scales up to be scary to fight against. Going with the likely intended path of Rome -> Norman -> France gives a potential 13 Combat Strength, but you don't get it right away and lose it all at the end of an age, making his special endeavor somewhat important (even as you don't really want to use it that often since you want to save that influence for wars). Further complicating the question of what is Lafayette's ideal gameplan is that a lot of the Roman Traditions aren't the best at the moment you receive them (though some do get stronger as the game progresses) and the Norman ones, while good are individually weaker to make up for getting 5 of them. Keeping all of this in mind it might be safer to think of Lafayette as having an average buff of 2 CS in Antiquity, 5 CS in Exploration, and 8 CS in Modern (these are estimates and are most certainly wrong, but have been helping me to set more realistic expectations). Those are incredible military buffs in in of themselves, but can leave him feeling lacking in the early game where it can matter the most, while being a menace late when there is a time crunch. They also compare decently with other military leaders like Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, etc, but those other leaders have other abilities in addition that are also quite strong (while having different restrictions on that combat strength).

All of this to say, I have no idea how to properly evaluate Lafayette at this time. What are y'all's experiences/thoughts?

Maybe Rome is not his best match. To get him going faster, I propose Greece (4 traditions) for more influence, so you can make more endeavors. Or Maurya (also 4 traditions) for extra happiness, so you get those celebrations faster. Also, Maurya is a very good Antiquity civ for transitioning into Normans.

 

[Nic@Melbourne]

Have struggled to get him off the ground. Point taken re scaling during the game.

 

[disjointaccount]

I like him. Combat scaling is great (and synergises in a very fun way with Rome), and the endeavor is nice as an extra way to get people to like you, if nothing else.

 

[Lord Lakely]

I think he's weak. Lafayette EVENTUALLY becomes very strong by the time you've accrued enough traditions, but that's a Modern Age thing. The moment where his kit should be making a difference is during Antiquity, and in that age +3 CS and a bit of culture really isn't large enough of a footprint. Again, good in Modern, but winning Civ7 really comes down to how far you can pull ahead in Antiquity and Exploration, and that's where his bonuses don't help him enough.

Also his unique endeavour is just bad. It's more expensive than a regular endeavour and only gives you an additional goverment policy slot. I never found myself in a position where I would favour that over getting Cultural Exchange, or saving up to vassalize a new IP.

 

[uppi]

I think he's weak. Lafayette EVENTUALLY becomes very strong by the time you've accrued enough traditions, but that's a Modern Age thing. The moment where his kit should be making a difference is during Antiquity, and in that age +3 CS and a bit of culture really isn't large enough of a footprint. Again, good in Modern, but winning Civ7 really comes down to how far you can pull ahead in Antiquity and Exploration, and that's where his bonuses don't help him enough.

Also his unique endeavour is just bad. It's more expensive than a regular endeavour and only gives you an additional goverment policy slot. I never found myself in a position where I would favour that over getting Cultural Exchange, or saving up to vassalize a new IP.

With the right civs, it is +4 CS for all units in Antiquity. In my opinion, this is better than any other CS bonus other leaders get except for Tecumseh (who is far above the rest). And it only gets better from there. If you get to +9 CS in Exploration, the AI does not stand a chance, even with Deity bonuses. Yes, he is a bit slow to start, but having powerful units is a very efficient way to catch up.

 

[Menocchio]

Lafayette I think is the only leader whose abilities only fully unlock in Exploration, and who can also be essentially hamstrung by playing a map like Pangaea where Distant Lands are marginal. He was very fun on release, but now definitely in need of a rework.