Leader Discussion - Sayyida al Hurra First Impressions

[disjointaccount]

After a bit of a wait since the last one, we reach the final (for now) leader thread with the launch of Sayyida al Hurra.
Her leader ability is Hakima Tatwan, which is a four-parter:

• Receive a Naval Unit every time you complete an Espionage Action
• Naval Units stationed on a District provide increased Culture and increased Influence per Age
• No Influence penalty for your Espionage being revealed
• Opponents cannot use Counter Spy against you

Her attributes are Diplomatic and Militaristic, giving her access to the Local Festival and Military Aid endeavors.
She has a starting bias for coastal terrain.
Playing as Sayyida al Hurra unlocks Republic of Pirates (otherwise unlocked by plundering 2 trade routes) and Abbasid (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Camels) in the Exploration Age and Ottomans (otherwise unlocked by conquering another civilisation's capital) and Mughal (otherwise unlocked by improving 3 Salt or having trade routes with at least 4 unique civilisations) in the Modern Age.
As an AI leader, her agenda is Wattasid Dynasty - Decrease Relationship by a Medium Amount with leaders who have the most Naval Units on the map. Increase Relationship by a Small Amount with leaders who have the least Naval Units on the map.

So what are everyone's thoughts? Likes/dislikes? Strengths and weaknesses? Fun strategies? Good civs to pair her with?

 

[disjointaccount]

Here are her mementos. Nothing earth-shattering imo:

 

[Leucarum]

I had a quick go over lunch - nothing that really sets the world on fire. Her abilities are middle of the pack. Definitely needs continuity mode as she kind of relies on generating lots of influence to fuel espionage. Ships on districts is definitely something you need to maintain... Another fun leader to pair with the lantern?

 

[Lord Lakely]

yeah, i'm not too impressed. The free units only trigger when you succeed in the espionage, so i only have +2 galleys halfway through the first age.

also, I haven't used espionage much before but I HATE how it eats into my influence per turn. play this leader with an influence generating Civ only is the initial takeaway I have.

 

[pjotroos]

I had a quick go over lunch - nothing that really sets the world on fire. Her abilities are middle of the pack. Definitely needs continuity mode as she kind of relies on generating lots of influence to fuel espionage. Ships on districts is definitely something you need to maintain... Another fun leader to pair with the lantern?

Yeah, that's my big worry with stuff like continuity mode and similar sanding off of the age design: that stuff will just start getting designed around those, with Regroup getting neglected, even though it was the default experience at launch. I'm trying her in regroup, and she feels borderline blank in antiquity - takes forever to get to the point where you generate the navy, and it will all vanish on era transition.

 

[Leucarum]

Yeah, that's my big worry with stuff like continuity mode and similar sanding off of the age design: that stuff will just start getting designed around those, with Regroup getting neglected, even though it was the default experience at launch. I'm trying her in regroup, and she feels borderline blank in antiquity - takes forever to get to the point where you generate the navy, and it will all vanish on era transition.

I'm coming round to the classic mode camp honestly. I've always been lukewarm on civ switching, but I was persuaded to try turning off legacy paths and honestly, when you get Civ7 as close as possible to a classic mode I'm finding it's a lot more fun.

That said, keeping it as a mode feels like the right call, so it would be nice for a lot of civs and leaders if maybe they can modify regroup so you keep 1 ship per city or something?

 

[disjointaccount]

My internet is out so I haven't had a chance to actually install the update, but I'm not particularly enthused by her kit on paper. Really not a fan of bonuses for garrisoned units. If I'm paying gpt to keep a unit on the map, the strength my empire gets from an extra handful of yields per turn is not a compelling prospect compared to the strength my empire gets from taking a city. Also, the latter is more fun.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

After some testing, I found that stationing naval units on obsolete buildings still triggers her bonus yields, which is nice.

 

[pjotroos]

Having played through Antiquity, I think she's a strong contender for the weakest leader in the game, currently, and certainly up there as my least favourite. The opportunity cost of spending all this influence on spying, instead of city-states or endevours, is massive. I can't really justify using it just to get the ships, and her influence engine is massively lacking, so you can't do it all. There needs to be something else in the kit that lets you keep espionage rolling - maybe Shisa-style partial refund once the operation is completed, maybe a discount for initiating them, maybe free spying if you are at war & your ship is within their borders. The yields on naval districts from boats are paltry, too - and any units you've obtained in antiquity despawn at the start of exploration if you play on Regroup.

Very flavourful kit, sure, but if you try to play into it, she feels weaker than a blank leader would be.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I am always unimpressed by any Leader/Civ that requires Influence to do anything special, because that currency is the the dearest in the game - especially early in the game when using up your Influence means you have no game in regard to IPs or diplomacy, and frankly, the Espionage Actions have always seemed to me to be a waste of time early on, compared to what you could get from a couple of friendly IPs.

This lady is a good example of that. She's naval oriented to get 'extra' ships from Influence actions (espionage) but extra ships are a) ephemeral, since there is no way to keep them with Regroup and b) their importance is Very map-dependent. On Archipelago or the new Shattered Sea maps they might be useful/important, but on almost any other map they are of only minor use in Antiquity compared to, say, more land units from IPs or friendly relations with your big land neighbors. And while she can get extra Influence (and Gold) by stationing ships in her cities, that just puts you in an Ineffectiveness Loop of using Influence to get ships that you use to get Influence and then watch it all evaporate at Age End.

It's a shame the game doesn't have Age-Specific Leaders, because I suspect she's much stronger and more playable in Exploration than in Antiquity, where she plays like an Anchor weighing down your game.

 

[Leucarum]

Her and Blackbeard both feel a little like victims of the era system...

 

[Tuvok694]

In the time it takes to complete the espionage action, I can build or buy many ships if I need them.
I have no idea what should motivate me to play as Sayyida again.

 

[A_Most_Foolish_Fool]

This thread seems quite down on Sayyida, but to me she seems quite powerful. One thing that hasn't really been mentioned here is that she in essence gets pre-nerf espionage, where your espionage is generally always successful since there is no counterspying against you. In the early time period after release before these nerfs, spying was the among the best uses of your influence (since you could get significant tech and culture boosts fairly regularly). This would seem to be even more true now given how much weaker City-States are in the current game's state and given how much better the AI is at getting higher yields (at least on Deity). The ships you get afterwards are not the reason why you spy, but a bonus that helps to fund future spy activity, which her vessels have incredible opportunities to do given that they get their bonuses from occupying rural districts as well as urban districts. This means that the limiting factor to how far you can take Sayyida's bonuses (from having vessels occupying districts) is not going to necessarily be the number of places you can dock, but simply the amount of gold you can generate. I think this means that civs like Carthage and Spain, which can help fund your naval empire are likely the best path for her and by the middle of the game, the other part of her ability really will begin to kick in once can finally fund a giant navy that can get massive bonuses.

As others have pointed out, she starts with no tempo and is not an early game leader like a Jose Rizal or a Genghis Khan (with his ability to get an early army from a city-state). However, how much does that really matter when you can get to the mid-game with a giant navy that passively provides significant culture and influence when it is not needed? Not going to argue that she is one of the strongest leaders (though this could prove to be true down the line as people find the right synergies), but she is certainly not a weak leader.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I haven't tried her yet, but as a peaceful player, I think she will suit my playstyle perfectly. Having large fleet helps keeping AI at bay. Stationing this fleet on your tiles is not a problem as I don't want to use it for offense most of the time. Spending influence on espionage is usually not a problem too, since without wars you normally have influence overflow, especially with additional influence from this fleet stationed in your tiles. It all looks like a perfect synergy.

 

[Lord Lakely]

There's a small power spike at the start of Exploration, which is where the Influence generation really kicks in. It's just really slow in Antiquity, and her mil/dip traits really don't help.

I will say though, memento's matter a lot. The lantern that gives you a free migrant if you succeed in a spy mission is kind of crucial with her.

 

[uppi]

This thread seems quite down on Sayyida, but to me she seems quite powerful. One thing that hasn't really been mentioned here is that she in essence gets pre-nerf espionage, where your espionage is generally always successful since there is no counterspying against you. In the early time period after release before these nerfs, spying was the among the best uses of your influence (since you could get significant tech and culture boosts fairly regularly). This would seem to be even more true now given how much weaker City-States are in the current game's state and given how much better the AI is at getting higher yields (at least on Deity). The ships you get afterwards are not the reason why you spy, but a bonus that helps to fund future spy activity, which her vessels have incredible opportunities to do given that they get their bonuses from occupying rural districts as well as urban districts. This means that the limiting factor to how far you can take Sayyida's bonuses (from having vessels occupying districts) is not going to necessarily be the number of places you can dock, but simply the amount of gold you can generate. I think this means that civs like Carthage and Spain, which can help fund your naval empire are likely the best path for her and by the middle of the game, the other part of her ability really will begin to kick in once can finally fund a giant navy that can get massive bonuses.

As others have pointed out, she starts with no tempo and is not an early game leader like a Jose Rizal or a Genghis Khan (with his ability to get an early army from a city-state). However, how much does that really matter when you can get to the mid-game with a giant navy that passively provides significant culture and influence when it is not needed? Not going to argue that she is one of the strongest leaders (though this could prove to be true down the line as people find the right synergies), but she is certainly not a weak leader.

I fully agree. Her real ability is the amount of spying she can do. She does not even get an influence penalty for being revealed, so her spying game is really powerful. Find Benjamin Franklin or Himiko and then send as many spies as you can. I played her with Axum, had massive culture but also easily completed the science legacy path despite very mediocre science yields. The science and culture you can get from spying really adds up. I also recommend finding a diplomatic city state and reserve some influence to befriend them, because you can a spying discount and speed it up. I don't often manage to get all 4 legacy paths in Antiquity, but she made it happen. The ships you get on top are a bit gimmicky, but can still be useful.

Also, rural districts (aka fishing boats) do count, so you can station quite a lot of ships. With Axum you can get very good utility out of your ships: First, you can establish trade routes, then you can station them to gain decent influence and culture yields and then you can even use them to conquer a coastal town or two.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

She is super dependent on your Age transition settings. I have only played her with Regroup meaning I lost all my ships going from Antiquity to Exploration, which is such a loss for her.

They really ought to make it so that naval units stick around during that transition with Regroup on.

 

[Tuvok694]

...but to me she seems quite powerful.

I am sure, we will see some videos on youtube (Ursa Ryan for example) where the title (again) sounds something like "completely overpowered", "totally broken" or even "best leader of the game". Everybody can choose leaders for their own games, so everything is fine.

 

[Tanel]

Yeah Antiquity naval civs and leaders do not feel good because you lose all ships on Regroup which is my preferred setting but at the same time starting Exploration on Continuity with tons of Ocean going ships also feels too OP. The middle ground solution would be that ships are not upgraded to Exploration ships on age transition so you would need to spend gold to update your navy at least.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah Antiquity naval civs and leaders do not feel good because you lose all ships on Regroup which is my preferred setting but at the same time starting Exploration on Continuity with tons of Ocean going ships also feels too OP. The middle ground solution would be that ships are not upgraded to Exploration ships on age transition so you would need to spend gold to update your navy at least.

Yeah, even if you kept, say, 1 ship per settlement, but they started as a "level 0" boat that needed to be upgraded to cross the ocean, might help.

Otherwise, I only got a few turns in to try her out, she obviously doesn't get anything right off the bat. Antiquity I don't usually get a lot of spying in, but she definitely seems like the sort of leader who you want to forego city-states (other than a diplomatic CS). She's primed though for exploration era dominance, since between hub towns coming online and stationing boats on your fishing tiles, that's her biggest time to shine I would expect. Certainly like Teach, she'd play way better with being able to transition boats to the new age to get all those yields ASAP.