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Leader of Vietnamese Civ

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by TyrannusRex, Apr 26, 2018.

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Which would be a better leader for a Vietnamese civilization?

  1. Le Loi

    8 vote(s)
    47.1%
  2. Tran Hung Dao

    1 vote(s)
    5.9%
  3. Other

    8 vote(s)
    47.1%
  1. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Warlord

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    Just kind of wondering what you folks thought about a better potential leader for Vietnam:
    -Le Loi, Emperor and founder of Le Dynasty, one of Vietnam's greatest historical heroes
    -Tran Hung Dao (born Prince Tran Quoc Tuan), renowned general whose armies pushed back three Mongol invasions and fought the Yuan Dynasty and Kublai Khan
    (NOTE: I'm picking a medieval-era leader simply because I'd like to avoid any controversy regarding more recent Vietnamese history. Basically, just like what they've done with Korea: instead of picking someone explicitly North or South, just go WAY back in time.)
    Or, if any of you know of a potentially better pick than either of mine, let me know. :)
     
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  2. Greywulf

    Greywulf King

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    I half expected to see Ho Chi Minh on the list of Vietnamese leaders, although thinking about it, it is unlikely that he would make it into an American game. He's an interesting historical character, but it must be noted that he too had blood on his hands...not really that unusual a thing though, sad to say, but we shouldn't ignore that sort of thing either. Despite that, he now has a major city named after him.

    Here's a short clip about his life from the History channel:
     
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  3. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Warlord

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    Definitely considered Ho Chi Minh, but ultimately went against it for the unlikeliness of that flying well with an American audience. XD
    (On an somewhat unrelated note, I definitely think Stalin should be left out of future games, but what about Lenin?)
     
  4. Greywulf

    Greywulf King

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    Personally I don't think American-centric bias should be a reason for exclusion...Just don't think that is either fair or honest.

    Historical characters that committed horrible atrocities however, do put me off the game, so that's a definite no to Stalin (and an even more emphatic no for Mao Zedong).

    As for Lenin, he wasn't exactly free of atrocities himself either, although probably generally overlooked by history in comparison to the extent of atrocities committed by Stalin. From that perspective, Lenin certainly isn't as bad a choice as Stalin, but we should probably judge Lenin separately, rather than in comparison to what Stalin did, otherwise we may minimize what he did.
    There's also another factor though, that if we only chose leaders who were completely innocent of atrocities, how many would we have to pick from? And it's not like all of the leaders we already have are all that innocent...Perhaps even none of them were completely innocent.
     
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  5. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Warlord

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    My main reasons for considering Lenin is 1) to represent the Soviet era of Russian history, and 2) I watched this video that looked at opinions on Lenin from both sides, and it kind of made me reconsider what I initially thought about him as a historical figure.

    But nonetheless, Vietnam... :lol:
     
  6. HoorayForSiam

    HoorayForSiam Chieftain

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    Personally, I would love to see the Trung Sisters leading Vietnam, but perhaps they would be better suited as Great Generals. Other than that, Gia Long would be a great choice, unifying Vietnam under one rule, and founding the last great dynasty.
     
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  7. Greywulf

    Greywulf King

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    The article says that the two sisters only ruled for 3 years...otherwise they do seem interesting.
     
  8. MP | Moongazer

    MP | Moongazer Chieftain

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    I mean we have Ly Thai To of the Ly dynasty; Tran Thai Tong of the Tran dynasty (the time where Vietnam successfully defeated the Mongols 3 times); Le Thanh Tong of the Le dynasty (under his rule Vietnam's monarchy reached a Golden Age); Nguyen Hue of the Tay Son dynasty.
    I would most likely not to choose any emperor of the Nguyen dynasty, because Vietnamese historians considered it to be a drawback (I may be wrong). The Nguyen dynasty literally ended the civil war but it also ended the innovations that previous emperors tried to brought into Vietnam's monarchy in order to avoid Western colonization. Also under the Nguyen dynasty Vietnam was colonized by the French.
    Why not Ho Chi Minh though? He is considered to be Vietnam's national hero, like Cuba's Fidel Castro.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2018
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  9. Greywulf

    Greywulf King

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    I think it's worth discussing Ho Chi Minh, however it must be said that just because someone is a "national hero" doesn't mean they were really a good leader. Mao Zedong is so much of a national hero that millions of Chinese people quite literally worship him, and they built many golden statues of him where they burn incense. The truth though is that he is responsible for more human deaths than anybody else in the history of the world. Of course, Ho Chi Minh wasn't like Mao Zedong, but he isn't completely free of blood-guilt either, which should be considered.
     
  10. Greywulf

    Greywulf King

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  11. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Warlord

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    After a little research, I'm thinking that Le Thanh Tong did a lot of things that would make Vietnam a really good cultural and religious civ.
     
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  12. MP | Moongazer

    MP | Moongazer Chieftain

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    Pre-colonial, Vietnam had a lot of candidates, as mentioned above.
    Post-colonial, under communist regime, Ho Chi Minh was the best choice though. There was a misconception about the Vietnam War, that Vietnam fought the war not because of communism, but because of Vietnam's own independence. Vietnam came to communism just because that's the only way to freedom (ironically). In the Versailles treaty Vietnam did ask for help from the capitalist Western nations, but they laughed at Vietnam's effort; Vietnam even had a very good relationship with the Western world throughout WWII, because we helped defeat the Japs.
    So if we look this part of history of Vietnam like that, Ho Chi Minh was a hero, a nationalist, who sacrificed his entire life in order to liberate his country.
    My opinion may be biased though xD Vietnamese here.
     
  13. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Prince

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    I voted for Le Loi since I personally liked him the best but I do think that Tran Hung Dao, Le Thanh Tong, and the Trung sisters are all solid choices too.
     
  14. MaximusPlatypus

    MaximusPlatypus O.O

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  15. MP | Moongazer

    MP | Moongazer Chieftain

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    Vietcong for the win :D
     
  16. Greywulf

    Greywulf King

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    Actually I thought that the UU was an interesting choice, though likely a controversial one, and could easily be taken as a political statement.
     
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  17. MaximusPlatypus

    MaximusPlatypus O.O

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    I'm obviously a supporter of CL (avatar is the civ icon ingame)

    Main issue w/ VC as a unit... besides the political issues... the civ has a Medieval flavor overall... but an infantry UU? the stealth mechanic is fun... but most of the world is chopped by the time it comes into play.

    In this poll, I voted Le Loi
     
  18. TyrannusRex

    TyrannusRex Warlord

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    I do think the VC makes for an interesting unique unit, and to be honest, that was the first thing to pop into my head as a "unit/solider" to represent Vietnam. Yeah, I can see the controversy in it, but Germany has had the Panzer and the U-Boat and no one really cared.
    What would be a good pre-colonial unit for Vietnam, other than something really generic?
    (PS: On a tangent, I liked the choice of Hwacha for Korea's UU, but when I think unique Korean unit, I think of the turtle ship, Geobukseon. Hoping it'll be added with an alternate leader, maybe.)
     
  19. MaximusPlatypus

    MaximusPlatypus O.O

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    or... if you wanted to go the AoE route, some kind of archery unit.
     
  20. Lord Lakely

    Lord Lakely Unintentionally a feminist.

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    Trung Trac. She would also be the preferred leader amongst Vietnamese players as well, given the legacy she and her sister hold to this day.
     

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