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Leaders: BNW Adaptation

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Could have a/the food bonus also apply to lakes? I'd agree I'd like to see somewhat longer rivers now and then.
     
  2. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

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    It probably could, but then that wouldn't have such good flavor. River bonus fits Egypt, lake doesn't really.
     
  3. ExpiredReign

    ExpiredReign Deity

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    The Washington -- Scout thing is mentioned because when the new 'starting unit' was introduced 1 or 2 versions ago, Washington had a scout as per the 1st page of this thread. Now he has a warrior. Why? I don't mind one way or the other I just like reasons for change to be available.
    Same reason why I raised the 'Dromon' thing in another thread.
    It's not the change, it's the undocumented change that irks me.

    I can be persuaded on anything if the reasoning is sound.
     
  4. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I've mostly finished the map, and plan to refocus my attention back on leaders. :)

    We've got a few introductory things reactivated with the help of ExpiredReign. Starting units are in (though not finalized), and I've been working on getting the AI stuff working again. I plan to re-introduce leader abilities and unique units next. The buildings will have to wait until I get the automatic tooltip writer reactivated.
     
  5. Alteris

    Alteris Chieftain

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    My thoughts on some of the leaders. Just ideas, take some or none, as you will :)

    -Germany with a World Congress boosting special building? I guess Germany does have a lot of weight in the current EU structure, but I don't see them as being especially remarkable candidates for this on historical precedent. And most importantly it doesn't mesh with the more military oriented theme of their other uniques. Germany should shine on military and industrial strength, not diplomacy.

    -Some civs feel bland. Poland and Siam jump out to me. They don't have anything that really changes the rules of the board for them, just makes them a bit better at current strategies (and even then, as jacks of all trades). Poland's geopolitically challenging position between Germany and Russia could be better reflected in its trait.

    -Culture feels a bit less important then before due to the victory changes. It's defensive against a victory condition now, not one in and of itself. Perhaps it's just me not having time to play with the expansion much, but that's my intuition. Some ideas for Aztecs, Greece, and Persia:
    -Aztecs also getting Great Prophet points in Tenochititlan with kills sounds fun.
    -Greece getting culture with city state trade routes to represent the sprawling and interconnected ancient Greek world sounds fun. Or getting a significant relation bonus with city states they have trade routes with.
    -One idea I tossed out with Persia before was to give them the ability to slingshot their golden ages into blitzes by healing all units (or 50% healing) within two tiles of a captured city. Or less unhappiness when puppeting or annexing. I guess you could do something land-trade themed for them as well, probably boosting culture, since all ancient Europe-Asia land trade went through Persia. The caravanserai was really a Sassanid Persian construct.

    -England really should get something to boost them on sea trade. They are the masters in all of world history on that matter.

    -Some of the unique buildings (Moroccan Kasbah, Brasilian camp) should be buildable earlier, just not as strong as they will be later.
     
  6. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    Since you're back in this thread again, going to shamelessly repeat my older post. ;)

     
  7. Dezath

    Dezath Chieftain

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    Russia was already a power house in all my games though =(

    Her new ub idea makes her would make you want to go science route on russia whether as russia isnt particularly known for science like other civilizations.

    Her current ua and ub are there to show her military and large territory aspects.

    If she needs to be change it would be nice if we would still keep that part of her gameplay there or at least not make her feel like a science civ.
     
  8. Anvari

    Anvari Warlord

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    I think it's funny nobody said something about the name of Netherlands UA. East India Company was a british Institution. The dutch equivalent is named Dutch East India Company in english or Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie.

    If we want to change the british traits, we could rename the dutch UA to Amsterdam Bourse. The Amsterdam Stock Exchange was founded in 1602 by the Dutch East India Company and was the first of its kind.
     
  9. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    It's more or less just a naming issue though, no? And East (West) India Companies existed in nearly every European nation btw.
     
  10. Anvari

    Anvari Warlord

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    I still dislike forcing a player to play with a nation the same thing over and over again and your proposal is exactly that. The whole Blut und Eisen-thing (Blood and Iron speech) from Bismarck wasn't typical German at that time. Most European countries thought this way.

    I'd pick up Hanseatic League and give Germany something like additional Influence with City-States and maybe additional votes for CS which are allied. AFAIK we don't have that type of bonus yet and it would fit to the League.


    One more: I would replace the Panzer with the Tiger I or II. Doesn't look like much of a difference but all are WW2 tanks. The Panzer I wasn't around long, it was replaced very soon with the Panzer 3 and 4, while the Tiger 1 and it's successor the Tiger 2 or Königstiger in german was the pinnacle of evolution. Fun fact: The weight of tanks during WW2 increased from 5.8 tons (Panzer 1 - last pre WW2 model) up to 70 tons (Tiger 2). I'll quote something from Wikipedia here:

    I think it would be a better fit. And we don't have to increase the direct combat strenght for balancing reasons, but can give them a Great General-effect like 5% or 10% increased combat strenght for friendly units surrounding the tank.
     
  11. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Panzer is more about the tactical advantage anyway.

    Panthers were PzV until Hitler removed the V, and are widely considered some of the best tanks in the war (along with T-34s, which they were built in response to). Tigers were notoriously unreliable, track damage was an easy cheap kill, even as they were extremely hard to kill and dangerous, and panthers were 8 times more common. I'd say Panzer is fine, but I'd be fine with a friendly unit bonus to represent combined arms tactics.
     
  12. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I updated the table with some thoughts I had recently. It's temporary until I can read all the posts here since my last update, and revise the plan based on recent feedback. I'm hoping to do this later today. :)
     
  13. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    America's UA:

    Perfect. So good. I love it. I cannot express how much I do.

    Just a question: Do the citizens move, or are they created? As in, if I have a trade route with another Civ, do they lose a citizen when I gain one, or do I just gain one? I think it should be the latter.

    Iroquois:

    Hm. Why do they start with mining? Sounds alright but I'm curious as to the rationale.

    Germany:

    ...no panzer? really?
     
  14. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Americas UA is really cool, like it. I suggest it should affect internal trade routes too, they're less popular anyway (Americans are exceptionally mobile within their country, too). Making the foreign citizen disappear would be very interesting, but it would anger at least the human player massively. I guess we're better off just letting a new citizen appear.

    I see you changed Carthage back to be closer to vanilla. It's ok either way. They are pretty strong and unique in the base game anyway, so not changing too much is maybe better. The "civilians can embark from turn 1" UA is a pretty cool one, however. Do we have any other Civ that could get it?

    Germany without tank UU? I see a ****storm incoming ;)

    I understand how no iron was problematic on Mohawks (upgrade!), earlier iron reveal instead makes sense.

    Butcareful, the Roman legion has the same upgrade issue! We could solve the problem by giving Rome free mining as well, but that would be too strong in combination with the earlier legions (which are an excellent idea! Cover promotion is a good one, too) Do you plan give each civ with an ressource-needing UU a free copy of the ressource again like in GEM (to build at least one UU)? Rome could get two free iron, then the legion could be iron-dependent again.
    Oh, and I guess the Legion can still build a fort/roads?

    Venice would also profit extremely from having free strategics, since they can't settle freely to aquire it. A human might overcome this limitation, but the AI really could use it.

    I don't have a definite opinion on Askia's new recon buff yet, not sure how well it supports his offensive orientation. But I do like good recon units... Worth trying I'd say. An alternative could be siege-promoted militia.



    I like where this is going overall! Feels like we're getting there :) I think would should really let you work now and fianlly test some of the long-discussed ideas in real gameplay. Can't wait! ;)
     
  15. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    We have a lot of flexibility for American immigration. The code for trade routes is very well designed and easy to use! I'm happy with what Firaxis did here for BNW.

    I'd like to try moving citizens first. It's basically the Emigration mod from years ago. I'm not hard set on the details, so if moving citizens turns out difficult to balance, we can create citizens instead.

    Let's say Washington has a trade route with Paris. Every now and then, 1 :c5citizen: immigrates from Paris to Washington. If Washington also has an internal trade route with New York, then a citizen will occasionally move from Washington to New York. We can vary the pace of immigration to balance things by checking distance, city size, happiness, religion, ideologies and so on. If a nation loses 1:c5citizen:, they also gain 1:c5happy:, so it has a beneficial side-effect. It's like loading dissidents on boats to America.


    @Tomice
    Yes, I plan to give leaders with early iron/horse UUs a free copy of the resource under their capital like in Gem.

    @albie_123
    I'm trying out Legions as the bulk of the Roman army. I moved the "no iron required" bonus from Mohawks to Legions to do that. The mining tech for the Iroquois reveals the iron their city will start on, so they have the iron necessary for their starting Mohawk. I'm going to try this a while, and if it doesn't work out, I will try new things.

    In short, I'm experimenting and this isn't permanent. The same's true with Germany and Carthage. :)

    I also need to read through recent posts to see what new ideas have come up.
     
  16. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Yes, sure. We are theorycrafting since months, it's time to finally test stuff :)
     
  17. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    I agree completely. I expect to release a Leaders update sometime this week.
     
  18. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    I'm not sure I understand why we needed a switch with Iroquois and Rome, especially considering the Native Americans never used iron at any point (with the exception of the Inuits using meteorites :crazyeye:) while the Romans used it extensively. Sure, Civ isn't meant to be 100% historically accurate, but this is a huge divergence from history. We might as well just give the Iroquois the legion unit while we're at it.

    I also am really unsure about other civs losing a pop from America's UA... we want to make trade beneficial for both partners. If I can lose a pop, I'm never going to trade with America at any point. A single :c5happy: is nowhere near as valuable as a citizen.

    I'll also probably mod the Panzer back in and replace the Landsknecht but that's personal preference I guess.
     
  19. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Germany: Double Strategic Luxuries, but no UU that uses them? Well...

    I see the point that the Panzer is so late game it's practically useless most of the time. So you either have the choice of making it overpowered (like the American UB), but then late-game attacks will often come from the sea anyways, or you can make the other Unique Components that much stronger. The third option you chose of removing it is probably the wisest in gameplay terms. I do hope though that in this case such bonuses as the old panzer can be moved to Ideologies. They do make more sense there anyways, as you can pick them if you want them in your specific late-game situation.

    I'm thinking whether this UA bonus (double strategics, extra production (or gold?)) may not be better as a policy in honor, boosting the economy? Probably needs to be nerfed (1 extra copy of ressource per stash).

    I like the changes to America, the Iroquois and Rome seem to make sense as well. Iroquois are now a complete one-hit wonder (have fun on a sandstorm map... :)). Rome seems fine, now more like a zerg (build many legions) strategy than one involving much strategy. But that's okay. What if Rome could start with a free Barracks? Would free buildings be a good idea for other civs on that note?

    Regarding America and moving population: A trade route takes 30 turns, does it make sense to make it happen at the end? Will it only happen to unhappy cities? Will City States be preferred? Let's just try it out, sounds very fun.

    So, how long to go? :) And will we move on now or can we make comments on the new BNW leaders :)
     
  20. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    Strongly, strongly disagree with this, and I've seen this argument come up a lot.

    While it's true that by late game your match can be decided, conquest is the one exception to this. It can help a lot to have a good late game UU if you realise an enemy is about to pop off a rocket before you've managed to beat them. This isn't something that happens rarely, this happens pretty often if you manage to not win by the modern era.
    So... late game military uniques are practically useless, except for when you need them? :confused:
     

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