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Leaders: BNW Adaptation

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Yeah, but then the Unique Unit needs to be very very good, no? ;) They lack the bonus of exploiting the cities you conquer since you don't have time to benefit from them, which makes them worse than early and mid-game ones. So they need to be badass. That's hard to balance. See comparison with the American UB and the three options we have to deal with it: a) Make it overpowered, b) buff other Unique Components and c) leave it out. I'm fine with all of them actually.

    I do have the experience that I more often than not do a sea invasion instead of a land one in the late game, any comments on that. Panzers aren't particularly helpful there...
     
  2. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    I agree they need to be badass. Panzers have always been badass, they're late-game masters. I liked them being a big part of Germany.

    As far as sea invasions go, I actually find that in the late-game, you're more often than not attacking runaways - so while you might have an initial naval assault, you'll end up duking it out on land.
     
  3. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Yes, free buildings make a lot of sense, at least it works well for Carthage. Barracks are a great idea for this IMO.
    Having free barracks at start could really boost any (early) warmonger, and there's another thread complaining about the weakness of early DoW's, which could be countered by this.

    Some buildings of course provide so straightforward bonuses that they'd be extremely boring if given for free, e.g. libraries or monuments.
    Forges might work as free building (What about a dwarf civ? *g*). Or lighthouses.

    We could also buff unique buildings by making them free and immediately available. Though I can't think of a good example. Free Kreposts from start if we wanted to buff Russia?
     
  4. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    I don't see the need for this whatsoever and it'd be a big change from vanilla.
     
  5. Tomice

    Tomice Passionate Smart-Ass

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    Just brainstorming here :) And I didn't mean ALL unique building, just for 1 or 2 civs. It's no more than another option for unique gameplay I haven't seen mentioned yet.

    Free forges at start might work for Germany, BTW.
     
  6. Anastase Alex

    Anastase Alex Warlord

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    Love the idea of the immigration of population on trade routes for the Americas.

    I believe that the American research laboratories might turn out very very strong. I would prefer to have them an emmigration office, as stated before, that would further bolster the emigration process.

    I would prefer the research laboratories of NASA to be Russian, cost 50% more hammers to build, and not give a spaceship factory.
     
  7. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Early Unique buildings are already quite good, no need to buff them.

    My proposal was actually that just Rome, the capital city receives the free barracks so that the UA can be immediately useful. And the free production helps getting out Legions and/or other buildings faster. It'll be the ultimate rush civ now.

    As for Germany, it needs a) the diplomatic bonus (which is best left on a mid-game UNW since it doesn't help in the early game anyways), b) a military bonus that is viable from the start and c) the Panzer since it's so loved. I can't really manage to build a coherent civ from that...

    EDIT: Btw. can we rename the Egyptian UB to Nilometer?
     
  8. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    I'm not sure I agree. As long as the diplomatic bonus is affected by early game actions it's alright - not every UA has to kick in on turn 1. I also feel that the military bonus doesn't have to be around immediately, just very early. My suggestion is sort of along those lines... it still has issues but I think it's slightly better than the current proposal. Obviously I'm a little biased though. :p
     
  9. Vrenir

    Vrenir King

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    What if the Huns became the war-based equivalent of Venice? They only have one real city name; what if they could only ever build one city, either puppeting their conquests or automatically razing them to receive significant bonuses in their capital?
     
  10. albie_123

    albie_123 Modding In Secret

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    I've always thought the Huns made the most sense as a one-city Civ (much more than Venice). Can probably wait for the next round of changes though, it'd be a big one.
     
  11. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

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    I could see a tier-1 Honor policy granting free XP building in your first four cities, but agree with Albie that free buildings shouldn't be a part of any civ's UA (I already strongly dislike the free strategics some civs get - GEM/CEP already gives balanced resources).

    Re: Germany - the UNW is far too sci-fi for me; how do they find out where other civ's capitals are if they haven't met them? Does finding the capitals "meet" the civs like when the WC appears? If so it's a broken mechanic imo. As I said previously I dislike giving any civ a bonus to the WC without any active participation (via CS's or specific *diplomatic* actions).

    Re: Rome - Why not double Iron for them and return Legion/Mohawk strategic requirements?

    Re: America - Sounds pretty good, but wouldn't a growth bonus be better (ie, less annoying if playing against America)? The UA should be limited if it remains as is, at least. Let it kick in after the WC appears, and/or limit it to getting pop from unhappy civs.
     
  12. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    I'd rather see the legions have an iron requirement too. Double iron and the GEM bias toward Rome (etc) getting some free iron would be better.

    Agreed on the german free contact effect.

    US growth effect mostly depends on numbers for balance.

    Agreed, tier one buildings should largely require policies to be for free rather than UAs. Carthage's free trade route effect in GK was however extremely powerful and changed the way they played in an interesting way (all coastal if possible).
     
  13. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    But why can't Venice build settlers in the first place?

    Is it to force you to go OCC? Not really since they can conquer and gain CS for free.
    Is it to make you use the Great Merchants and Trade Route System to the fullest? But why force someone to play like that in such a hardcoded way?
    Is it to allow for a strong UA with the double trade routes? Then only give a few more trade routes, not double them...

    I dislike hardcoding stuff and I fail to see how that would help the huns. Sure, not expanding leaves more place for barbs to spawn near them and enlarge their army, but can't we already a) code the AI to do that and b) doesn't it follow logically for the human player? So do we need to force a player to play without settlers?

    But yes, Venice and the other new civs can come in a next step.

    Meh, it's a game. And yes I suppose it's worded that way so you can become the founder and have a big headstart in the World Congress. What about:

    UA: Free Delegate on National Wonders and per conquered City State
    And Landsknecht (stronger Pike) and Panzer (stronger Tank)

    Probably too strong. Either way, the current proposal for Germany works well enough for my taste.
     
  14. BroOfTheSun

    BroOfTheSun Warlord

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    I think any UA that gives bonus delegates to the World Congress would not be fun to play with. It basically means that you will always win the World Congress and be the Host for it. As a human player, you would probably always go Patronage, build Forbidden Palace, and always be in control.

    AI will have a higher % chance of hosting the World Congress throughout the game (as long as they play correctly).

    It would make the civ very linear and boring in my opinion. Every civ starts level with the World Congress, and it should stay that way.
     
  15. bwoww78

    bwoww78 Warlord

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    totally agreed.

    also, love the American Dream UA. And if the NASA Center UB ends up with Russia (though I like where it is), then I'd agree with others on replacing it with a tourism focused late-game UB.
     
  16. Delekhan

    Delekhan Prince

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    For America's UA, just for flavor:

    Many of America's greatest entrepreneurs, engineers, etc. historically (and today) came from abroad as immigrants and created something huge in America. Andrew Carnagie, Nikola Tesla, Albert Einstein, just to name a few (the list could span hundreds of pages).

    How about adding points to the great engineer or great merchant counter from immigration? Either per-turn or whenever an immigrant population point triggers. That'd be interesting :)
     
  17. Babri

    Babri Emperor

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    I agree that Panzers shouldn't be removed, Landskenechts should be replaced by preferablly a UB/UNW. Germany would be a high production civ with diplomatic bonus in mid game & at industrial they could start building up their military & get factories up quickly & go for autocracy. Together with Panzers+high production+autocracy they would be unstoppable killing machine late game. :)

    Active participation. :hmm: How about Hanseatic League giving extra delegate for each trade route sent to Germans? And yes I agree showing capitals sounds sci-fi.

    Legions should require iron IMHO, mohawks are fine as it is, they don't need it in vanilla game either. And in my games I generally find plenty of iron to build enough legions.
     
  18. Volver

    Volver Chieftain

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    I'm not sure I agree with the idea of a Roman unique naval unit. Despite its location, Rome was historically a land (not naval) powerhouse. Rome's relative naval weakness compared to Carthage is why Carthage was such a thorn in Rome's side during the Punic Wars. Hannibal & the elephants are more glorified, but Carthage's navy was its true advantage.

    Maybe some adaptation of a Forum would be more historically appropriate, as they were built in all cities that fell under Roman control? A market that enhances income or culture in the capital perhaps?
     
  19. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

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    Roman navy had complete dominance of the entire Med for a couple of centuries after building it up to crush Carthage. I'd say that's rather significant as a powerhouse. That said, they did typically rely on Greek or Egyptian crews and ships.

    It would be nice to have an economic effect, though I don't see how it should only influence those things in the capital?
     
  20. Dezath

    Dezath Chieftain

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    If rome is going to have a navy UU are you going to change its starting preference so that it starts close to water?
     

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