1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Leaders: BNW Adaptation

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Jul 17, 2013.

  1. Endovior

    Endovior Prince

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    346
    Any serious empire's going to have lots of military things going on on all fronts. That doesn't mean that they are unusually awesome at all of them. You could (with far more justification) argue for an American naval UU, for their Carriers (which are unquestionably head and shoulders above the offerings of any other power). Doesn't mean that there's room in the game for them, though. Even if there was another UU slot, I really don't think Roman naval power was exceptional enough to justify it. They didn't really innovate much in that arena, so much as they borrowed from their foes.
     
  2. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    11,057
    Location:
    Texas
    I like when leaders change our strategies. I figure immigrants can move from big unhappy cities to small American settlements. This encourages us to send trade routes from small cities when playing America. I normally start routes from my biggest cities, so this is a very different strategy.

    If we're playing against America, keep our happiness positive, and send trade to big American cities, our citizens won't want to leave. If we have deep unhappiness, immigration to America can help us reach positive happiness again, increasing our nationwide production and combat bonuses. We can add a small gold bonus on trade routes to America later if it's a problem.

    I'm okay with creating citizens instead of moving them, though I want to try the more flavorful version first. :)

    Another option is simply copying the effects of the original Emigration mod. People immigrate to new American settlements from the biggest and most unhappy cities around the world, without a connection to trade routes. This won't affect our strategies as much, but will still make America excellent at expanding and growing new cities. The difference with the trade route approach is one version gives us active control over the effects, while the other is more passive.



    I read through recent feedback and modified the plan. :thumbsup:


    @Ahriman, mystikx21
    Moved the space race building back to America.

    @GenjiKhan, Hreat
    Moved unique improvements earlier in the game.

    @Ahriman
    If I was working at Firaxis, I'd agree with you about unique natural wonders. I create unique NWs for practical reasons. With our modding tools, it's easier to create some effects with buildings, and other effects are simpler as abilities.

    @albie_123
    Roman Liburna now start with Merchant Raider 1 instead of faster speed.

    @Naeven
    I think your idea for 1 German delegate to the WC per conquered citystate is feasible, if we want to try it later.

    @GenjiKhan
    Netherlands got Arabia's luxury abilities from Gem, and Arabia has the religious trade theme. These are different effects from England's Steam Mill.

    @BackseatTyrant
    What if we give Sweden a unique farm buildable on tundra and snow that gives extra food and defense? Sweden could have the free-units ability, healing Carolean, and special farm.

    @Anastase Alex
    Deserts on the Communitas map have more production and less food than vanilla. Rivers are more rare in deserts, reducing food from floodplains, but I added extra stone to compensate. There should be plenty of production for Egyptian wonders. It might just be a little harder to grow their cities.

    @Anastase Alex, mitsho
    I'm thinking Suleiman will be the leader who can rely on domestic trade for income. Tribute will give gold from internal trade, providing economic safety and stability in wartime.

    @Tomice
    Changed Carthage back to turn-1 civilian embarkation.

    @Qwynn
    Basin irrigation represents thousands of years of amazingly uninterrupted farming along the Nile River. Egyptian irrigation was more decentralized than other civilizations, allowing Nile agriculture to continue during times of war and upheaval. This is a uniquely Egyptian achievement. None of the other ancient civilizations accomplished such long term sustained agriculture. Egypt's irrigation was done with the basin method instead of aqueducts, since the Nile brings the water and nutrients without the need of long channels.

    I found my information from research like this:
    waterhistory.org/histories/nile/t1.html

    @Ahriman
    Added some basic food to the Basin Irrigation building for cities with short rivers.

    @ExpiredReign
    Washington's starting scout moved with his unique ability to Catherine, who now has the expansionist theme. The scout helps her find city locations for rapid early settlement.

    @mitsho
    The Great Works screen is very hardcoded. It's extremely difficult to add or remove great works slots to buildings. I'd need to scrap the interface and create a new one that adapts to show great work slots available in the empire. I'd like to do this eventually, but it will be a task for cep advanced, and until then we can't easily change great works slots on buildings.

    @Alteris
    Greek trade bonuses with citystates sounds interesting. I'm okay with changing the Aztec ability to faith from kills. If we do that, we should probably invent different abilities for the Celtic Pictish Warrior.

    @Seek
    Reduced the Hanseatic League to 3 delegates and moved it to the UA.

    @Anvari
    Renamed the Dutch UA to Amsterdam Bourse.

    @albie_123
    We could add free iron to early Roman cities on their UA, instead of making Legions resourceless. Both options let us build lots of legions.

    @Seek, mystikx21, Babri
    I think it might be fun to represent nations meeting through trade like Marco Polo's journey. I'm okay with leaving this idea off the Hanseatic League. Where else can we put it?

    @BroOfTheSun
    Most uniques make leaders more linear. The Zulu abilities encourage us to always go for spears and pikes. I'm okay with this.

    @Endovior
    I'd like to make one civilization a dominant Classical Era military powerhouse on land and sea, then fade in later eras. I think this fits the Romans. Some nations were known for their army (Mongols), others had a strong naval presence (England). The Romans had both.
     
  3. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,496
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    hmm, looks good. Can we try it? Can we try it? Can we try it? :D

    I feel there are some changes that could yet be made, especially with the new leaders, but for now it works.
     
  4. Wichtel

    Wichtel Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 9, 2010
    Messages:
    28
    About America: I like the new American ability and if it is linked to happiness it will make culture/tourism a lot more interesting. The mechanic might even be too good. It makes tourism more engaging and active, it counter acts the crippling happiness penalties while keeping the mechanic meaningful and rewarding and it is very flavour full. We should think about turning this into a general game mechanic later on.

    About the new Dutch improvement: You said you can built it at the coast. Is it possible to built it on any tile or just plains/grass?

    About Carthage: I think the turn 1 embarkation is a great idea and it models all the Mediterranean colonies and the disjointed nature of the Phoenician empire very well.

    About Germany: The age you are in will change how the votes in the world congress are counted. Is it possible to link the German world congress changes to the current voting method? In the beginning it would be about the balance of power, so they would get bonus votes to match the current leader. In the beginning of the modern era they would just ignore all resolutions modeling the world wars. And in the end game we give them bonus votes for declarations of friendship modeling the European Union. As a German myself the only thing my country can and should be proud of is that after two world wars and the holocaust Germany became about peace in Europe and never letting history repeat it self.

    About Rome: I don't think we should just focus them on war alone with two military units. The Roman empire was one of the most stable empires we have ever seen. The game all ready models this via the capital bonus but I think we should enhance it further because it is a very unique play style: A tall capital and a wide empire. The problem with this play style is that it is luck depend. If you get a production focused Rome you can build up your empire but if you get a gold focused start or a bad start it falls flat. The empire should feed back into the capital. Since the Osmans all ready have better internal trade routes we should just let buff road/sea connections with the capital. This will tie in with the road building ability of the legions. Rome could get one production and food for every city connected to the capital. If that works with puppets it will even make early war more effective. This way Rome will be about infrastructure which is very fitting.
     
  5. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    3,410
    Re: America - The changes tying US growth to happiness is interesting, but what if it also somehow included Tourism? I think that would be flavorful, accurate and more balanced, so the UA would really come into it's power in the late game.

    Agreed. I did forget about Carthage's free Harbors, which is an excellent and unique UA. Let's just not start adding free buildings willy-nilly to many civs.:)

    I think it's because there was a lot of people calling for a playable city-state (Ed basically said so in a recent interview). Venice is a ton of fun, I think the devs did an amazing job with them. I have no problems with them not being able to build settlers whatsoever, playing them makes for seeing the whole game differently (which is ideally something we'd want to achieve with many leaders imo).

    This is an interesting idea, we should keep this in mind if the current plan doesn't work out. I could see the US getting the old Sweden UA to meet this vision, seems to fit much better than Ethiopia (I don't understand the reasoning behind them getting the Swedish UA at all:().

    I'd rather there not be any "free" delegates for any civ and that all civs start on an even playing field wrt the WC. As I see it, Civs that have UAs that are CS-focused are already the ones getting a WC bonus; it should remain as such.
    But if we want to do something explicitly impacting the WC, I think it should require the civ to be active in the WC to achieve it. My idea from earlier in the thread (probably not codable, but something like this would be good):
    Spoiler :


    As Wichtel describes, Rome offers a unique opportunity to have a civ be all about a wide empire with a tall capital. Having a UB that "sends" culture, gold, food and/or production to the capital would be flavorful and different than anything else currently in the game (Domestic TRs notwithstanding). I proposed a similar idea before G&K came out and I'd still like to see something along these lines for Rome.

    Agreed on both.:)
     
  6. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    13,266
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I haven't been able to follow all the conversations, but on the current version of The Plan:

    The American UA seems really weird. How is this useful? I really don't think we want to have citizens explicitly moving around. I would much, much rather stick with something that favored early expansion and less unhappiness per city.

    Arabia might be slightly weak now, I'd have to play them to see.

    With Harald I would say better pillaging (more gold, more healing?) would be more useful than faster pillaging.

    For England: I think the movement rate bonus (especially on embarked units!) might be more interesting than the experience, it's easy enough to get the first 20 experience from killing barbs. The steam mill would be boosted if the factory got a bit of a boost (I would dramatically lower its production cost, so it is the coal availability that really matters).

    Germany doesn't make sense to me. Germany isn't particularly well endowed with strategic resources, Germany wasn't particularly diplomatically effective (that effect makes far more sense for Austria), and the Hanseatic League makes much more sense as a gold/economy/trade bonus than it does a diplomatic one.

    A great writer slot on the Greek Odeon might be interesting. I'm against this in general for most civs, but it might be a fun tweak for just a single civ.
    Easier to change then too if it causes a problem.

    Do Samurai end up getting the open terrain bonus from a unique promotion, rather than just free shock, so that swordsmen with shock still get a bonus from upgrading?

    I really dislike the trireme UU for Rome. Rome was still primarily a land power (it's navy was necessitated by its geography). Rome was also amazing at constructing buildings, they deserve some kind of UB. And 2 same/similar era UUs have terrible synergy because you can't build both at once, and land/navy UUs have weak synergy because they suggest different settlement patterns and conquest strategies.
    I would so much rather have a unique Colosseum (change the regular one to Arena and call the UB Colosseum), Forum (from a market), Baths, or Aqueduct.

    Is Polynesia underpowered? I don't think I have that DLC.

    Songhai still doesn't work for me. Fast vanguards and UU cavalry have weak synergy. With good cavalry you already have mobility covered well, you don't need more speed on other units, and having extra sight on lots of units doesn't end up adding more of a bonus.

    Can the great galleass get some kind of promotion that stays with upgrade? Maybe Range for faster movement, or anti-city, or something?

    Otherwise, there is a lot of cool stuff here that will be fun to try out.
     
  7. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2005
    Messages:
    11,057
    Location:
    Texas
    There was an Emigration mod years ago which moved immigrants from unhappy nations to happy ones. I liked it. It worked well, but didn't fit in with what I was doing with the project at the time, so I didn't make it part of the main mod. I think it fits America perfectly.
     
  8. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,496
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    So it's a hard rule for flavour reasons? I am kinda looking for a gameplay reason here, mind you I'm not arguing they should lose that I am just asking why and what the gameplay effects are.

    [That said, I would have preferred Venice to be a "found cities on water so land melee units can't conquer them"-civ. That would have been outside the box as well. The current one, meh it's subjective I guess]

    On America, I guess Free Great People (+ Immigration) would fit rather well with them for flavour reasons. So many big names were and are still emigrating to the US after all. But isn't that more of a Tall bonus (I guess the prospect for the NASA Factory makes them wide enough).

    That'd mean Ethiopia should get another bonus, a real tall one, like Bonus Yield each tiem a city grows based on the base amount the city has (so little with small cities, big with big ones). Why was this idea scrapped btw.?

    I think the issue with the Emigration mod was that a) the AI doesn't understand such new systems, b) it was easily exploitable in those early stages and c) it takes action away from the player as it's an uncontrollable element. It also goes a long way from the base game.
     
  9. Ahriman

    Ahriman Tyrant

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    13,266
    Location:
    Washington, DC
    The gameplay reason is basically that double trade routes is such a huge powerful advantage that there has to be a dramatic penalty in order to balance it.

    I enjoy the current Venice. Something like "found cities on water so land melee units can't conquer them" would be really hard to make work in the engine and for the AI.

    I think all of these are significant, but the last two in particular. And I'd add: it depends on the behavior of other factions which you can't control, and it doesn't really make you play very differently.
     
  10. Naeven

    Naeven Warlord

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    158
    Location:
    Sweden, Scania
    I think if we want to make a tundra/snow unique, the allotment system farms shouldn't be the idea. North of Sweden was not were the farms were (and mostly not the population either). I'm not particularly against a snow/tundra Sweden, but maybe some kind of trade station ( Reindeer camp? :D) UI instead. I'd also like it to give :c5production: and/or :c5gold:, not :c5food:.
    Eventho I suggested the Swedish Allotment farms, one of my own objections to it was that Sweden shouldn't be a tall civ in the first place, so +:c5food: uniques is kinda wierd. The low population / "manpower pool" was what drove Sweden into a quality millitary in the first place.

    That said, I think the new UA for Sweden works really well.
     
  11. Seek

    Seek Deity Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2010
    Messages:
    3,410
    Sorry to quote myself, but I just had an idea for incorporating tourism here (assuming there's interest ;)): increase the chance of getting immigrants at each increase of influence level with other civs. So for example, the base chance is 1 per 100 turns, when America becomes exotic with a civ the chance goes up to 1 per 50 turns with that civ, at familiar it's 1 per 30 turns, etc. (numbers not balanced obviously.)
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2005
    Messages:
    6,806
    I personally would rather see a roman "forum" type UB more than a second UU. Rome was as much known for its advanced culture and governance than for its conquests.
     
  13. mystikx21

    mystikx21 Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    3,229
    Location:
    ohio
    @Ahriman Polynesia is probably fine. The decreases in culture from BNW make the Moai a little better already (much like Chateaus for France are good). If we use a VEM-style effect for bumping them further (clustering them), they're probably excellent for wide culture. You already can go explore abroad earlier than anyone else, which is a massive advantage for WC effects or for settling islands and territory abroad. A modest change to the UU strength as before is probably built in as well.

    I'd be fine with a UB for Rome instead of the UU naval. The biggest issue is the combination of both UUs at the same time, which was why vanilla Greece has issues (roughly).

    I'd prefer an active effect for the emigration as well. Moving people around passively as an advantage doesn't really make for any modification in how you play.
     
  14. agc28

    agc28 Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2006
    Messages:
    220
    deleted
     
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2003
    Messages:
    7,496
    Location:
    Europe, more or less
    Is it though? On my play with Venice I was running out of viable trading partner quite fast. Guess that had to do a lot with it being a Small Map (but the civ needs to work there as well) with a non-expanding France and Mongolia as neighbours (Each had one city until the Renaissance when I took one over) and a bit further away Siam refused to settle on the coast... :crazyeye: In short, the extra trade routes didn't bring me that much more money. Some yes, but overpowered?

    As a result, you can imagine I found the civ rather bland and it needs so many "special rules" so it can work. I had to search long for a City State with Iron f.e., as there was none in my immediate are (and France and Mongolia refused to expand). That's annoying, not fun. Sure it's a bit of a challenge to figure it out, but in the end it's not that different. Now I'm not saying we should change them, but that I really don't understand what all the fuzz is about with this civ.

    Lastly I could annex cities I conquered. Wasn't even asked whether I want to raze or puppet them (Is that a bug or has it something to do with the 'raze' fix?)
     
  16. Babri

    Babri Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2010
    Messages:
    2,449
    Location:
    Pakistan
    It looks odd that Carthage lacks a naval UU while Rome has one. Rome is better suited for wide style UB while Carthage could get their naval UU back with some awesome change to make it interesting. It will also make a good synergy with overall Carthage theme.
     
  17. Alteris

    Alteris Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    41
    Thal,

    Glad you liked the Greek idea! I think it would be easy to implement though I'd leave it for the more expert souls here to balance out. I'd just kick out the free culture per city bonus and replace it with a more powerful cultural bonus (when it's up and running) for city-state trade. The close ties between the Greek mainland and its many colony city-states could be represented by a relationship bonus with city-states that you trade with.

    Having those + the militaristic CS unit bonus would make Greece fun to play, IMO. They aren't so overwhelming as to overpower Greece, either. Of course, I leave balancing up to more experienced minds.

    Wichtel,
    "As a German myself the only thing my country can and should be proud of is that after two world wars and the holocaust Germany became about peace in Europe and never letting history repeat it self."

    Nonsense, Germany has a couple thousand of years of history and culture to be proud of! :) Every country has tinpot Caesars now and again. It's the cyclical nature of history and the irrational and unstable nature of humanity.

    Anyways on Germany I'll second once more what Ahriman mentioned, Germany makes sense as a military and industrial power, not a diplomatic power. I think a setup should be thrown out along those lines to look at. The reputation of the Germans through history has been one renowed for martial virtues and organization. England has a better argument for diplomatic than Germany does, what with its tending to always pile on against whoever was the big dog in Europe at the time. Germany on the other hand was either fractured and not influential in international politics, or crushing its neighbors.
     
  18. bwoww78

    bwoww78 Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2011
    Messages:
    252
    Idea for Roman UB (to replace naval UU):

    Roman Forum or Colosseum: available only in capitol and provides +1 gold and +1 culture per city connected to capitol.

    1. Encourages wide empire with strong Capitol;
    2. Thematic "all roads lead to Rome" idea, synergy with unique road building capability of early UU Legions (can build roads straight to newly settled cities or to desired conquest locations for early connection);
    3. Additional gold can help in purchasing buildings in capitol (synergy with UA production bonuses in other cities) while additional culture supports pacing social policies/tile expansion to reflect Rome's lasting legacy across in western culture.

    FWIW, and I may have mentioned before, but I agree with posts above that the "war & diplomacy" angle does not seem to fit Germany.
     
  19. Alteris

    Alteris Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2012
    Messages:
    41
    On Rome, I think Rome needs to better represent that it was a giant black hole in the ancient world sucking in culture, gold, food, and resources from all around, or in another analogy, the militaristic version of a Ponzi scheme (always needing more conquests to keep feeding with food and gold its current ones, and collapsing in on itself when it ran out).

    I think it could make use of those internal trade routes shipping stuff to Rome. Perhaps upping the values shipped by double or something, to the point where external cities are basically just resource-extraction piles for Rome. Or tack on culture, science, golden age points, etc. Or unlock the shipping via internal routes earlier.
     
  20. Jorad

    Jorad Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2011
    Messages:
    55
    I'm not so sure about that. That was just the reputation of the Prussians (and then early Germany, which was centered around Prussia) for around 200 years.
    I don't think anyone would have said that about Germans in the 17th century or earlier.

    Maybe one could create some theme around the Kleinstaaterei? That defined the German lands for far longer and actually made them quite unique in Europe.

    I don't mind if other people prefer the warmonger role with tanks, but I'd prefer a more 'neutral' theme for Germany, that can go in different directions.
    I thought we wanted to get away from the 'obvious' themes and unique units for the more well-known nations like Germany.
     

Share This Page