Leaders might be too immersion breaking

[AntSou]

I think I've come around to the idea of Civ Switching, and the more I watch the more I'm intrigued by it. It’s now clear to me it will be very little like Humankind, especially in single player.

No one will be confused by England becoming Britain. And the fact there are only two changes also helps.

The thing that is bothering me the most are leaders.

Basil leading Greek city states. Benjamin Franklin leading Celts. Suleiman leading Ancient Egypt. And so on.

We are moving from "the Leader is the most important thing" in Civ 6 to "leaders are just historical avatars" in Civ 7.

On the plus side, we'll finally get to play Civs which don't have historical leaders and were always excluded on those grounds.

But I wonder if they should communicate this detachment between civ and leader more aggressively in game. Like maybe make them essentially self aware that they are long dead historical figures and making them aware of their historical status. So they act more like Gods whose help the player is recruiting, rather than mortals.

 

[Professor Phobo]

The leaders are more or less proxy for you and the other players. In a more supernatural game they could be spun as tutelary angels or guiding spirits or time traveling conspiracies, but here we're just not supposed to worry about how they eat and breathe, and other science facts, remember it's just a show and we should really just relax.

 

[Teutonic_Tirade]

I always assumed the leaders were the personification of the particular motives, culture, style and form of governance a particular Culture or State would have throughout its lifetime.

 

[AriochIV]

It was always a little weird to run into the Prime Minister of Canada in the desert in 2530 BC, so I don't think this will be very much weirder.

The AI will apparently always choose "historical" pairings, so it shouldn't get too far out of whack.

 

[Zaarin]

I always thought of the leader as the avatar of the civ and the "person" I'm playing against/with, something above the game not in it, so I don't find Civ7's take particularly more jarring.

 

[AntSou]

It was always a little weird to run into the Prime Minister of Canada in the desert in 2530 BC, so I don't think this will be very much weirder.

It never felt that way to me, because it was still Canada, so the weirdness was consistent. Now you'll have a French speaking Emperor leading Rome. It demands more levels of suspension of disbelief.

They are no longer just detached from time, but also from space.

 

[AntSou]

I always thought of the leader as the avatar of the civ and the "person" I'm playing against/with, something above the game not in it, so I don't find Civ7's take particularly more jarring.

That's interesting. To my mind i was the selected leader and roleplaying him/her.

 

[Zaarin]

That's interesting. To my mind i was the selected leader and roleplaying him/her.

Sort of like @Teutonic_Tirade said, I always thought of myself more as the tutelary spirit of the civilization (or even the zeitgeist of the civilization).

 

[Teutonic_Tirade]

Zeitgeist is a word that I would use to describe it.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

It never felt that way to me, because it was still Canada, so the weirdness was consistent. Now you'll have a French speaking Emperor leading Rome. It demands more levels of suspension of disbelief.

It's about time. We've had Italian leaders for France for the longest.

But in all seriousness, I feel the same way. Seeing Hatshepsut leading Songhai or the Abbasids is as weird to me as Egypt switching into them is.

 

[Zaarin]

It's about time. We've had Italian leaders for France for the longest.

I mean, as far as we know, the French-representing leader is still an Italian.

 

[Xandinho]

Sort of like @Teutonic_Tirade said, I always thought of myself more as the tutelary spirit of the civilization (or even the zeitgeist of the civilization).

I feel the same way about myself, I don't care so much who I'm playing with. What bothers me is my neighbor Confucius leading the Egyptians. That's something I'm going to take some getting used to.

 

[Teutonic_Tirade]

My guess is that the default setting will be matching leaders with historical-ish Civs, and then a complete mixed bag option, like Civic/Research Shuffle mode.

 

[AriochIV]

It never felt that way to me, because it was still Canada, so the weirdness was consistent. Now you'll have a French speaking Emperor leading Rome. It demands more levels of suspension of disbelief.

They are no longer just detached from time, but also from space.

Maybe, but only if they have the AI choose later leaders in Antiquity starts. The appearance of Franklin in the videos suggests that they do, but that's not for sure.

It would a nice set of options if they let you set some criteria for how the AI chooses leaders and civs. Both for those who'd like a more historical campaign, and for those who'd like to see wackier combinations from the AI.

 

[Jkchart]

I am once again begging some of you to separate ethnic/regional/national origin from what makes a proper leader for a country

Case in point being Napoleon who was born in a Corsica as a part of France, fought in the French military, spoke French even if he grew up speaking Corsican, was the Emperor of the French, etc. Calling Napoleon Italian because he was born Corsican ethnically is silly and revisionist in a way that doesn’t make much sense with…history and citizenship which always go beyond and are more complex than national borders, language, and origin.

If you don’t like Napoleon because he’s Napoleon and you want someone different then that’s completely valid! But Napoleon is a leader of France/French by all accounts, not some random Italian dude lol

But Catherine de Medici is totally Italian and not a ruler of France so go ham even though I found her fun personally even if I would never pick her

EDIT: slightly rephrased

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But Catherine de Medici is totally Italian and not a ruler of France so go ham even though I found her fun personally even if I would never pick her

If it makes you feel better my joke was more towards her, but I agree with your sentiment. The only foreign-born Catherine I want is the one who led Russia anyways.

 

[Jkchart]

If it makes you feel better my joke was more towards her, but I agree with your sentiment. The only foreign-born Catherine I want is the one who led Russia anyways.

I guess I always am at odds with Zaarin on Napoleon in general to the point that I didn’t register you were both joking (well, Zaarin maybe only half lmao )

Curse the internet and my inability to read into the context

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

It was always a little weird to run into the Prime Minister of Canada in the desert in 2530 BC

As a Canadian, I've often felt this would be one of the best places for our Prime Ministers.

 

[Zaarin]

I guess I always am at odds with Zaarin on Napoleon in general to the point that I didn’t register you were both joking (well, Zaarin maybe only half lmao )

I was fully joking about him being Italian. Not even half joking that I'm grateful to 2K for locking my least wanted leader behind a 2K account, strongly incentivizing me not to have one.

 

[Jkchart]

I was fully joking about him being Italian. Not even half joking that I'm grateful to 2K for locking my least wanted leader behind a 2K account, strongly incentivizing me not to have one.

This is definitely worthy of ire to have him locked this way for people that don’t want to deal with that, but hilarious for you since you don’t want to deal with Napoleon