Leaders

[zxc]

I was in the process of rewriting it when I realized a National Wonder would work. It's up to date now:

• Sejong: +1 Science from Farms. (renamed "Choson Dynasty")
• Sejong: Jade Hall national wonder gives 1 free technology, and +2 for all specialists in all cities.

The free technology replaces the similar effect that was on the trait. It's basically like a combination of the old Great Library plus a sci-focused Statue of Liberty, all in the Classical era.

Is the Jade Hall supposed to be exempt from the libraries in 75% of cities requirement? I hesitated to report it as a bug or oversight in case it was intended.

Wonderful mod by the way

 

[albie_123]

If it was intended Thal, I strongly suggest putting the requirement back. The Jade Hall is already very, very powerful. No need to make it more so, especially when a building requirement favours tall empires anyway.

 

[Babri]

Has the Babylon lost its +50% GS generation?

 

[Thalassicus]

@Txurce
I moved Babylon's science advantage from the trait to the Walls of Babylon. Also, this is partially to compensate for the buff of starting with a Bowman.

@zxc
Welcome to CivFanatics!

Unique national wonders like the Jade Hall have a higher base cost than their replacement, but do not require prerequisite buildings. This is so leaders with a unique NW are not pushed too much into a one-city opening strategy. If it's too strong I can change this later, but I'd like to test it thoroughly first.

 

[Txurce]

@Txurce
I moved Babylon's science advantage from the trait to the Walls of Babylon. Also, this is partially to compensate for the buff of starting with a Bowman.

@zxc
Welcome to CivFanatics!

Unique national wonders like the Jade Hall have a higher base cost than their replacement, but do not require prerequisite buildings. This is so leaders with a unique NW are not pushed too much into a one-city opening strategy. If it's too strong I can change this later, but I'd like to test it thoroughly first.

I understand that to mean that the Walls give Babylon a 50% GS-building buff.

I don't think the Jade Hall will be a problem with your NW approach, if only because you'd be crazy to put off building it for long. (I'm playing them right now, and built it right away.)

 

[Seek]

I like the change for Nebu, but does that mean he has no trait?

 

[Thalassicus]

v131.15 Beta - March 15, 2012

Leaders

• Nebu: Starts with a Bowman and receives a Great Scientist at Writing. 2 scientist slots in Walls of Babylon (replaces +50% great scientist creation rate).

These are his characteristics:

• Trait - Starts with a Bowman and receives a Great Scientist at Writing.
• UU - Bowmen are more powerful Archers and move faster in Deserts.
• UB - Walls of Babylon have high strength and 2 Scientist slots.

 

[Txurce]

Do the Walls slots come close to equaling a +50% GS rate? No, right? I would much rather have the old trait back, and lose the Bowman if need be. It's great to have, but not at all necessary, especially with Scouts being so easily converted to Archers.

 

[albie_123]

I've found Babylon to still be quite powerful in its own right now, the great scientist can be very useful when saved, and the two scientists can actually make another GS come quicker early-on than the 50% bonus did, since earlygame, there is very little for that bonus to actually affect. I agree that the Bowman does not have a whole lot of effect over the course of the game, but it does what it is intended to do: To make the Civ more fun to play earlygame.

I'm not suggesting to NOT change it back, just saying that Nebby is certainly not weak by any means.

 

[Seek]

Without yet playing a game with the new Babylon, I suspect that it will be more powerful in the early game than before but weaker in the late game. Like the changes to Korea, it also requires a more active role by the player which is a positive I think. (Indeed, beelining HG instead of GL could actually be a better move now!)

 

[Txurce]

I've found Babylon to still be quite powerful in its own right now, the great scientist can be very useful when saved, and the two scientists can actually make another GS come quicker early-on than the 50% bonus did, since earlygame, there is very little for that bonus to actually affect. I agree that the Bowman does not have a whole lot of effect over the course of the game, but it does what it is intended to do: To make the Civ more fun to play earlygame.

I'm not suggesting to NOT change it back, just saying that Nebby is certainly not weak by any means.

Agreed that he's not weak... just weaker, and less his pointy-headed self. Two scientist slots early on take too workers off the field a bit early, so I would probably find myself waiting a while to make use of this (after taking the time to build Walls I may otherwise have skipped).

I had thought that the accelerated rate kicked in with the Walls, and thought this was a more appropriate adjustment, since it forces you to build them.

 

[Txurce]

Without yet playing a game with the new Babylon, I suspect that it will be more powerful in the early game than before but weaker in the late game. Like the changes to Korea, it also requires a more active role by the player which is a positive I think. (Indeed, beelining HG instead of GL could actually be a better move now!)

I did play them, and felt the absence of those GS in my v44 game where Persia and Siam blew me off the road in beakers. Let's face it, if you're playing for a science win in today's VEM, why would you want a weaker Babylon?

I always aim for both the GL and HG - a lot tougher now - but think there's something perverse about Babylon being put in a position where the GL is not the best choice!

 

[albie_123]

(Indeed, beelining HG instead of GL could actually be a better move now!)

I would say this is true for Babylon, although Mathematics is still an awkward tech to go for when trying to get some beakers under your belt in the Ancient / Classical era.

And I should say that I played with the new Babylon as soon as it came out and have not since, and as the AI has now become incredibly good at teching, it may be the case that Nebby is left behind a bit.

 

[Thalassicus]

When playing Babylon I fill out my available scientist slots. If you do, this is the Great Scientist points per turn in a city with:



This buffs the Walls of Babylon, which was the weakest link for that civ.

Working those two extra scientists means we gain +6, which is a lot in the early game. It's a tradeoff for whatever those citizens would have been doing otherwise. A grass village is 2 2, so our gains are very competitive against the losses.

 

[Txurce]

You lost me. What does the Garden have to do with it?

More importantly, are you saying that - food aside - the slots will more or less result in as many GS for Babylon as the old method? (I never built the Walls in my last game, because I din't know about this.) I guess we also have to factor in that it's Walls in every city, not just the capital. It's an argument for going with Liberty with Babylon, which separates them from Korea.

If all of this is more or less the case, then I look forward to trying them again with optimism, rather than resignation.

 

[pthmix]

The only thing which boggles me with Babylon is that they don't have a trait after writing.

How do people feel about Darius? I played him a bit and it was not really fun. He feels so inflexible. How about a plain +10% to , and growth/surplus food during golden ages in addition to the movement bonus? It would allow for a lot more different and interesting playstyles.

 

[Seek]

I hate to say it, but perhaps Siam's UA should be nerfed a bit - they seem to do extraordinarily well in every game I've played, and it seems like every post listing the tech runaways has mentioned them. Persia is quite strong as well, but perhaps not as (dare I say it?) OP as Siam.

 

[Thalassicus]

@Txurce
Here's a before and after, if we fill out our scientist slots:

v130
City with Library, Walls, and Garden produces 5 points per turn, so we'll get a GS after 20 turns.

v132
City with Library, Walls, and Garden produces 12 points per turn, so we'll get a GS after 8 turns.

Tradition and liberty both have strong wall bonuses so either one is good.


@pthmix
Napoleon doesn't have a trait after Steam Power, so a trait going obsolete has precedent.

I've never figured out a good way to improve Darius. I'll hold another leader poll in a month or so. If these changes haven't made him more popular, we might try replacing his trait with something totally different. Golden ages don't even have a direct benefit... they just let us do other things better. Maybe it'd be better to give Darius buffs to those other things directly...

@Seek
I'd be okay with reducing Siam from 40% bonuses to... 25%?

 

[albie_123]

How do people feel about Darius? I played him a bit and it was not really fun. He feels so inflexible. How about a plain +10% to , and growth/surplus food during golden ages in addition to the movement bonus? It would allow for a lot more different and interesting playstyles.

I quite like the new Darius, certainly much more than the older one.

The fun I got from Darius was trying to maximise Golden Ages - the entire game effectively became making my people as happy as possible, while going for any policy that would benefit Golden Ages, in order to get the upper hand in culture. The UU is especially cool in this regard, since using the Immortal against Barbs is more of a tool to get more Golden Ages than to have a promoted army. I'll admit though that the +50% could be something more exciting, to make the Golden Age itself unique.

I hate to say it, but perhaps Siam's UA should be nerfed a bit - they seem to do extraordinarily well in every game I've played, and it seems like every post listing the tech runaways has mentioned them. Persia is quite strong as well, but perhaps not as (dare I say it?) OP as Siam.

Siam, in my eyes, has always been the strongest Civ - the one contender being vanilla Korea. They do have a tendency to runaway, and it's primarily due to the extra food they get. All that really needs to be done is a lessening of the percentage value.

 

[Seek]

@Txurce - The garden affects GPPs, so it has a lot to do with it.

@pthmix - Agreed, it would be great if Persia had a focus on the uniqueness of their GA rather than simply more GAs. I'd like it if their GA=+10% of every yield, so it will be less production and gold, but much stronger otherwise.