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Leadership structure?

Discussion in 'Team Cavaleiros' started by oyzar, Nov 12, 2008.

  1. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    What sort of leaderhip structure should we have for this game? A lose democracy is very slow(often decision needs to be taken within a day), however a more hirarchical structure can lead to some opinions getting lost. Communication is at any rate important so please fill in your contact information at the other thread.
     
  2. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    This is probably one of the most important issues for us to decide on. I actually have very positive experiences with a loose (not lose please ;)) democracy from The Council in the Civ3 MTDG, but yes it has a tendency to move slow at times. On the other hand, we probably have far more input from all players than any of the other teams, which means a lot more ideas are thrown around. I would like to see something similar here, though I would also be positive to the creation of some sort of structure, where some people in key positions are expected to come with input and in some cases decisions, while not excluding input from others.

    A typical structure I could imagine would be something like:

    Turn Player - has the final executive responsibility. Should listen to input before deciding how to play, but has the final say in cases where a consensus or strong quorum cannot be reached (but is required to follow the consensus or quorum in the cases where it can).

    Domestic Advisor - someone to keep track of our internal progress, and give suggestions to the turnplayer regarding things like build queues and worker actions. Aka Master of Spreadsheets. A lot of team input will be needed here of course, the point of having someone responsible is simply to ensure that at least someone gives input, not giving that person the power to decide everything.

    Foreign Advisor - someone to keep communications with the other teams, and be our face outwards. Possibly we could have a separate ambassador for each of the other teams, though experience says that's not really necessary. Might still be good to have more than one person handling this role though. Again, the point here is not to have this advisor dictate our foreign policies, but simply to serve as the interface between the team and the (foreign advisors of the) other teams. This position can be quite hectic at times, e.g when a lot of information needs to fly back and forth between teams fast so we can reach an agreement "before the next turn" or some such.

    Security Advisor(s) - If the Foreign Advisor(s) is the face we show to the other teams, the Security Advisor(s) is the eyes we turn towards them. Someone(s) to keep the team up-to-date with exactly what we know about the other teams' actions and progress. This role means information gathering in its extreme.

    Military Advisor - This role will probably (hopefully) not be needed for a long long time. The idea is to have someone to be our expert on strategy and tactics, suggesting venues of attack and calculating odds and prefered mix of arms. Again, team input is going to be needed, and the idea is to ensure that at least someone comes with input.

    That's 5+ positions that I would like to see us decide on, and probably have terms (for the Turn Player in particular) after which we see if someone else wants a go. Something like 50 turns for the first term and 25 turns for each term thereafter?
     
  3. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    50 turns sounds like an awful long time... I don't think the turn player should have to be the same for more than 10 turns each. Also should at least be a thread with screenshot and thoughts on every single turn...
     
  4. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    I'm certainly fine with shorter terms - I was more afraid of getting the opposite response, that 10 turns was too short. ;)

    And yes, I agree, the turn player will have a large responsibility for reporting.

    One thing I wonder about this pitboss structure - is it even possible for players other than the turnplayer to look at the save? If not, the turn player will have to take screenshots of everything every turn. And I truly mean everything - All F4 subscreens, F8, F9, espionage screen once with each other civ in focus, overview maps, shots of each town, etc... So what's the deal there? Can the turn player download the save from the pitboss server and upload it to the forum for others to view?
     
  5. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Yes anyone who have the pw can log into the game. Another responsibility we might have use for is moderator for this forum.
     
  6. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    Your list of positions seems really good; covers about everything I can think of, and on most actions I would go with the democratic route. I think a couple of the roles need to be more permanent (Security/Domestic, because once someone starts tabulating a ton of demographics and info it's hard to transfer). I also agree with a short turn playing term. As far as the forum goes, I think we need to decide on whether we're going to set up a few major threads (continuous updating as time goes on) or have separate threads as issues come up. Obviously there are going to be a ton of turns; we won't make a separate thread for each one. But then, for involvement of all the players on the team, should we have, say, a single diplomacy thread, or new, smaller threads for issues like "should we trade tech x". I favor the conglomerated threads; I picture the first post being edited each turnset with something like:
    "Turn 75- page 40 of thread"
    Issues to Discuss:
    X - Resolved: what we decided on
    Y- Resolved
    Z-Ongoing
    This is probably only one of many ways to streamline things for the various players on the team though, so I'm sure everyone has a lot of input on what might work.
     
  7. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    Both PurpleTurtle and I have expressed interest in handling the Security Adviser stuff.
     
  8. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    Didn't purple turtle say he would not want to be primary anything? Anyways i am fine with handling whatever position i guess, though if there are anyone else who are more experienced in mp combat it would be nice if someone else handled that as i don't feel it is the strongest part of my game(though i do have some experience there obviously). One position i feel safe taking though is the position of backup turn player(if i am not turn player that is), basically making sure that turns aren't actually missed(civstats is a good tool for this). Obviously i am comfortable with being turn player as well...
     
  9. Renata

    Renata homicidal jungle cat GOTM Staff

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    Yeah he did; we could share, or I could take the lead, or whatever, doesn't matter much to me. We'll see if anyone else is interested in the same area, I suppose, and then work things out amongst ourselves.
     
  10. PurpleTurtle

    PurpleTurtle Shellshocked

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    I find the security adviser suite of responsibilities fascinating and would be delighted to either go halvesies with someone (Renata would be good) or second someone in that position. I would also be delighted to help a domestic adviser with their analysis. Of course, I would be delighted to render assistance and participate in strategy formulation for all of the areas of consideration, it is just these that I feel I might be of particular use in.
     
  11. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    Wow, I almost would've thought security advisor would be the position no one wanted to take (though I was interested in it too). Maybe this says we've got quite an exceptional team with so many people willing to delve into details and analyze. Don't worry, I'm not going to compete for a position; you guys will surely do great. So, I've got time and am willing to take on any position, but don't really know what best suits me.

    Foreign: I'd be the Sarah Palin nomination :lol:. The other teams will have never heard of me, won't know what policies I'll put into effect! I'd be willing to try this position but realistically would happily defer to someone with more experience. At any rate, the foreign advisor won't be deciding things the team as a whole hasn't already decided on (perhaps: "you're authorized to negotiate buy tech x from team y for up to such and such a cost"); it'll be more about the poker face and negotiating with other teams. That being said, if we need the position I could fill it.

    Military: This is something I'm both excited and apprehensive about. If the game lasts into industrial/modern era, there's going be situations I've never experienced before, as humans are able to feint, bluff, doubleteam and so on in ways the AI can't.(even with less advanced units I suppose there could be surprises) Thinking about it, I actually don't think we should put a focus on a single military advisor, or at least the role should be modified. I feel it will be vitally important to come up with creative strategies from everyone on the team. In other words, if we get into a war, the response should be: everyone on team think of your own standard/crazy/idiosyncratic strategy, and then we combine these. The by the book approach, or even just leaving one person in charge, could lose out on vital turning points like pillage raids, intercepting reinforcements; anything we can glean from the other team. In single player, you can map out a campaign (attack these cities, then these, etc...) while I think this would get us devastated in this game. So, I think the military advisor should be the one who simply does more number crunching (power graph estimates, calculate odds for taking certain battles, unit movement rates, and such). I'd be willing to try this position if the responsibility is more about tactics than strategy.

    Edit: Didn't want to make a double post, just clarify the idea I had the other day regarding threads on this forum. I think some threads, if we're going to be democracy oriented, should be permanent. In particular, I think each person on the team should reserve a post on the first page, that they could edit at any time (discussion taking place later in the thread). So, we'd have a thread like "City Build Orders" with the OP describing the current turnset. On the first page, every team member has a short post with their "vote" on what to go with, and then discussion is later in the thread. Then we just sticky a bunch of these threads (Tech, Build Order, Diplomacy, and when it comes to war whatever we need there). This would lean heavily towards having someone have to keep updating info in this forum; alternatively; each advisor could keep the OP on their related thread.
     
  12. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    I would like to second our team diplomat, be it Earthling or someone else (I wrote with Niklas yesterday and he offered to take the position if noone else wants to).
     
  13. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    I've been thinking about that some more, and I actually don't think I should take the Foreign Advisor position. The reason is that there are people on three of the four other teams who would expect me to be a devious lying slippery character, based on our Diplomacy game and my frequent suggestions for diplomacy in the Civ3 MTDG. :mischief:

    So I would like to play the role of Domestic Advisor, which is probably what I'd do best anyway. I will back up all other positions though, since it's hard to keep me silent. :p

    Earthling - I think your ideas about the Military Advisor are very sound. It should be more about tactics than strategy.
     
  14. Calis

    Calis on time

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    That might also lead to difficult discussions within our team, if it's the truth what they think about you :p
     
  15. Niklas

    Niklas Fully Functional GOTM Staff

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    :lol:

    Oh no, don't worry, I'm a very honorable person. No, really! I'm not above bending the truth to get what I want within the game, diplomacy-wise, but I would never do that to the team (unless we played some in-house Diplomacy or MP game to pass the time, but that's a totally different thing :D). Why would I want to do that? :p
     
  16. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Same thing here. I was a rather slippery diplomat in the Demogame III, but only to win my own faction power.
     
  17. oyzar

    oyzar Have quit civ/forums

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    I could be Foreign advisor though i really perfer to mostly handle actual gameplay decisions.. At least none of the people know me as slippery or not keeping my word...
     
  18. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

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    Hi,

    not sure I can handle one of the role alone (well, except turn player if there is a rotation) as I lacked MP experience but I will be pleased to assist every people in charge.
    I agree on Niklas not being our ambassador (regarding "a devious lying slippery character") :lol:

    Will continue reading about MP for now...

    Cheers,

    Raskolnikov
     
  19. Munro

    Munro Deity

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    A 'loose' democracy sounds good to me too - and roles like 'domestic' and 'military' advisor are definitely areas where we can all contribute according to enthusiasm and interest.

    However, I do think are a couple of areas already highlighted where it does make sense to have clearly defined responsiblities:
    • Turnplayer - obviously only one at a time... :p and absolutely needs to have final executive responsibility in order to execute effectively; and agree with all Niklas' other points about follow the consensus where possible. Rotating every 10 turns or so seems sensible to keep everyone involved (who wants to be). Who wants to go first? :)
    • Foreign Advisor - aka. ambassador to the other teams. Makes sense to have only one (or possibly two for good cop / bad cop) people doing this, to reduce miscommunication and risk of contradicating and / or repeating ourselves.
    • Moderator (aka team captain). Exceptionally useful for, well, moderating the discussion, keeping things moving, resolving deadlocks and disputes, and making executive decisions when needed (all the things loose democracies are bad at when unmoderated).

    And I'd like to nominate Niklas for team captain, since he's got some clear experience with the democracy format (game and forum) and seems to be willing to take the lead on such issues. And we need to have someone to formally step forward and graciously thank the other teams on our behalf when we eventually win. :p

    I'd also suggest oyzar for (one of the two) diplomats. He is a man of his word, his logic is usually indisputable, and being known as one of the better players out there (present company excluded of course.. :p) won't hurt either. In other words, he is usually pretty persuasive. He is also pretty active on the boards which is also important for this kind of role.. :)
     
  20. Diamondeye

    Diamondeye So Happy I Could Die

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    Good points Munro, I like the idea of Niklas as team captain, and would be glad to second Oyzar should he become Team Diplomat.
     

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