Leading euro rabbi calls for euro jewish to be given special weapon-carrying licences

[Commodore]

The fact that gun crimes are vastly higher due to their easy access in the US than any other country in the world.

But again, in the grand scheme of things, gun violence isn't bad at all in the US. To hear you and other anti-gun people tell it, there are packs of armed fiends shooting everyone in sight.

 

[Tahuti]

The fact that gun crimes are vastly higher due to their easy access in the US than any other country in the world.

You mistake correlation with causation - which is pretty ironic given your reputation for being a skeptic due to your anti-religious views.

Anyway, the mistake of your argument is this: The US has very high gun crime rates. And easy gun access. So they have to be connected! They have to! Except, that you shouldn't be so sure.

Belgium has easy access to firearms as well. So do Germany and the Czech Republic. Still vastly lower crime rates in the US. Fact is that many other factors play in the high crime rates in the US, such as very high incidence of mental disorder related medication, ethnic tensions and drug prohibtion.

 

[bhavv]

I think its pretty obvious that the was access to guns in the USA leads to a far higher likelihood of gun crimes, which is evident by the correlation between the two.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Belgium has easy access to firearms as well. So do Germany and the Czech Republic. Still vastly lower crime rates in the US. Fact is that many other factors play in the high crime rates in the US, such as very high incidence of mental disorder related medication, ethnic tensions and drug prohibtion.

It's easier to get a firearm in Germany than in France, the UK, or Scandinavia, but it's still a lot harder than in the USA.
We also have about one school shooting per decade and several smaller incidents. Again, far less than the USA, but distinctly more than European countries with stricter gun laws.

 

[Commodore]

I think its pretty obvious that the was access to guns in the USA leads to a far higher likelihood of gun crimes, which is evident by the correlation between the two.

What evidence do you have that gun crime in the US is a direct result of the current gun laws? Without such evidence you cannot reliably make the claim one is related to the other.

Assuming there is even a problem big enough to warrant our attention, restricting access to guns doesn't really seem to have that much of an impact on the problem either. This is evidenced by the fact that the areas in the US with the strictest gun control laws have some of the highest rates of gun violence in the nation.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

What good are strict gun laws in one state if you can just go to another and get a firearm there ? You would either need a nationwide ban on firearms or border controls between states for it to work.

 

[Tahuti]

What good are strict gun laws in one state if you can just go to another and get a firearm there ? You would either need a nationwide ban on firearms or border controls between states for it to work.

I think almost all Dutch people who own illegal firearms obtained them from the Czech Republic or Belgium. Schengen makes things easy like that.

 

[strijder20]

By the looks of it, Belgium has a legacy of being used as a highway by the powers of their days and complaining about getting their fries wrong.

On an international olympiad in Poland, me and the other members of the Belgian team replaced all instances of 'French fries' on the menu carts by 'Belgian fries'. The Australians found it hilarious

I'm fairly certain that because of lax enforcement, it is fairly easy for civilians in Belgium to acquire automatic firearms as well, and Belgium has often been compared to the Czech Republic for being a European country with fairly libertarian views on firearms. There have been efforts in Belgium to formally restrict civilian ownership from few to practically no one, though the pre-existing laws were hardly enforced, so I doubt much has changed.

That's possible - apparently I'm not fully aware of my country's gun regulations, but it doesn't surprise me one bit. There's going to be a protest action in Brussels because the government is cracking down on tax evasion in bars and restaurants - which basically means they're protesting for the right to continue breaking the law. (The actual issue is somewhat more complex, with tax evasion being necessary in order to run a profit-making business, but it's still rather absurd)

I, for one, have never seen a gun in my life. I live in West-Vlaanderen though, which is basically a bunch of pig farmers who aren't affected at all by the issues in the center of our country.

 

[Tahuti]

I, for one, have never seen a gun in my life. I live in West-Vlaanderen though, which is basically a bunch of pig farmers who aren't affected at all by the issues in the center of our country.

I suppose most Belgian gun nuts come from Wallonia since that's where the guns come from!

 

[gay_Aleks]

Belgium has easy access to firearms as well. So do Germany and the Czech Republic. Still vastly lower crime rates in the US. Fact is that many other factors play in the high crime rates in the US, such as very high incidence of mental disorder related medication, ethnic tensions and drug prohibtion.

Lower population, really. Compare 300+ million diversified population (be it race, religion, ethnicity, and all that) and 11m population which has relatively firm religion and ethnicity.

 

[Tahuti]

Lower population, really. Compare 300+ million diversified population (be it race, religion, ethnicity, and all that) and 11m population which has relatively firm religion and ethnicity.

By that logic, there should already be civil war in Belgium!

 

[gay_Aleks]

Well, highways don't get no civil wars.

 

[Tahuti]

Everything was better when the House of Orange controlled all of the Netherlands!

 

[gay_Aleks]

Yeah, and then you lost to the English. Then the French.

 

[Tahuti]

Yeah, and then you lost to the English. Then the French.

Actually, we helped beat Napoleon with the British, got modern day Belgium as a reward, until that cursed July Monarchy in France popped up.

 

[gay_Aleks]

Oh, sure thing. One of Napoleon's nephews wants to have a meeting with you. Granted, he did betray him, but only when it was clear Napoleon was getting his ass handed.

 

[Commodore]

What good are strict gun laws in one state if you can just go to another and get a firearm there ? You would either need a nationwide ban on firearms or border controls between states for it to work.

Okay, but I'm still not convinced that is the reason strict gun laws aren't working. To use an example: the Sandy Hook shooter used firearms that were purchased in the state in which the crime was committed. Incidentally that same state has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation.

This is the case with most gun crimes. I highly doubt people are travelling to other states to purchase firearms in any significant numbers to be able to say that is the reason gun control isn't working. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please share. Until then though, I am going to consider this type of reasoning as nothing more than a cop-out by the anti-gun crowd to hand-wave away the fact that the laws they propose simply do nothing to solve the problem (and that's assuming there is even a problem to solve in the first place, which there isn't).

 

[warpus]

Okay, but I'm still not convinced that is the reason strict gun laws aren't working. To use an example: the Sandy Hook shooter used firearms that were purchased in the state in which the crime was committed. Incidentally that same state has some of the strictest gun control laws in the nation.

They don't seem to be strict enough:

On the question of Lanza's state of mind, the report noted "significant mental health issues that affected his ability to live a normal life and to interact with others, even those to whom he should have been close...

 

[Commodore]

They don't seem to be strict enough:

But still stricter than the rest of the nation. Plus, the Sandy Hook shooter wasn't the one who actually purchased the guns used. If I recall correctly, he was using weapons that were purchased legally by a relative of his. Chicago is also another city with gun control laws that are as strict as they can be without being unconstitutional and they have one of the highest rates of gun-related crime out of similarly sized cities in the US.

Now I want to be clear that I am not claiming gun control laws make the problem worse, just that they don't have any significant impact on gun-related crime. Now I don't know about you, but I am the kind of person who believes that if a law isn't actually solving any problems or protecting anyone, then that law needs to be taken off the books.

 

[bhavv]

I have such mental health issues. But they don't make me grab a gun and shoot people.

But maybe if I could simply walk into a shop and buy a gun .... Yea, gun ownership is a bad thing ok? I don't want it to become that easy for me to get a gun and go on a shooting spree.