Learning through hard work - good but bad?

[Alignn]

As much as I love this mechanic and enjoy getting a "free" expert, I think it might be bad for balance. It makes experts much less valuable, since you'll just get them anyway eventually, and I'm much less reluctant to use the clear specialty function since a specialist I have no immediate use for is less useful than a free colonist that can learn a new skill.

And the education system is pretty much eclipsed by this mechanic, mainly something I use for indentured servants and political refugees, especially with the new restrictions on what can be learned with a basic school etc.

Maybe education could be a resource that builds up to 100 or so, and then you can promote one worker in the settlement to be an expert at what they're already doing?

 

[rah]

I don't think it's occurrence is so frequent to screw up the balance. I'm currently doing quick domination games and in my latest one, it didn't ever occur once. Except for colonists becoming vet soldiers.
But then it's sometimes a case of perception. The larger the empire the more likely one will pop frequently enough to think it might be too much.

 

[Alignn]

Hm, I am playing as Denmark... Maybe it's just that I underuse the regular education mechanics.

 

[rah]

In my domination games, I very rarely ever build a school. Hammers are more important as political points

 

[ConjurerDragon]

Hm, I am playing as Denmark... Maybe it's just that I underuse the regular education mechanics.

Doesn’t the leader Egede of Denmark have "sophisticated" and as such a bonus to learn faster from hard work than normal?

 

[Nightinggale]

There are a number of tickets regarding this issue:

• Experience not displayed
• Experience towards expert can be cleared
• Debate about merging learning by doing with the schools

You will gain experts at some point, particularly if you aim towards it. The problem is that what is going on is completely hidden from the user interface and it just happens seemingly at random. If you don't read the code or just happen to spot the pattern, you are at high risk of triggering the bug where the experience towards becoming an expert will be reset. If it takes a minimum of 20 turns and you just happen to reset every 5-10 turns, then yeah you won't gain any experts at all. The AI attempts to reset every single turn, which is obviously not good.

I don't have a problem with the current system in terms of balance. Often by the time you start to gain experts through work experience, you will need more than one and it takes ages to get them through work. It's also uncertain how long because once they are experienced enough to become experts, they don't actually unlock experts, but rather gain a percentage change to become one at random each turn. Sending units to the natives or schools will always be better.

Also we have to remember that gaining experts through work solves the issue that certain experts can only be gained from natives and there is no code to ensure that all native experts are available in all games or the only one is far away. Gaining the ability to make an expert out of "nothing" means you aren't at a huge long term disadvantages if you can't get the expert(s) you need for your terrain/bonuses while other players can gain the experts they need for their terrain/bonuses.

 

[Alignn]

Doesn’t the leader Egede of Denmark have "sophisticated" and as such a bonus to learn faster from hard work than normal?

Right, which I only belatedly realized is probably why it seemed powerful to me - or at least more palatable than the standard education system, which takes a potential worker out of the system for a good long while.

 

[rah]

What activity causes these "resets"?

 

[Nightinggale]

What activity causes these "resets"?

Changing the profession. It has a counter of turns of experience, but if the profession is different from the profession last turn, then it resets the counter. This is particularly bad for fishermen because it's not uncommon for a pirate to force colonists to move away from fishing and say work on a building. Even if you move the unit back ASAP, it still had one turn of not being a fisherman and as such has reset the experience.

 

[rah]

Thank you, that makes it clear.

 

[lyciummusic]

Does resetting experience include changing plots as well? I sometimes do that, giving best spot for expert and moving colonist to another position to keep working same profession.

 

[raystuttgart]

As far as I remember my old "Learining by doing" code, just changing the plot (to another one with the same "Profession") should not reset the counter.
(The "Profession" needs to stay the same.)

 

[FaarmAnimal]

I like the mechanic and I don't think it needs changing.

 

[rah]

Ditto

 

[Drunk-Monk]

I think the mechanic needs to be changed. At the moments its poorly implemented, the ideas put forward in the github threads would do alot to resolve its many issues.

 

[FaarmAnimal]

I think the mechanic needs to be changed. At the moments its poorly implemented, the ideas put forward in the github threads would do alot to resolve its many issues.

From the github (posted by Nightinggale):

"There is a feature called "Learning by doing" where units remembers how many turns it has worked in a certain profession. If it has worked enough turns it gets a chance to become professional.

There are a few problems though.

1) it's invisible in the GUI
2) it's an int and it's reset if the profession changes
3) the AI is moving units around in colonies way too often to make use of this"

If these issues can be addressed then great. As long as the the mechanic is not removed entirely then I'm happy.

 

[fatihdal]

There are a number of tickets regarding this issue:

• Experience not displayed
• Experience towards expert can be cleared
• Debate about merging learning by doing with the schools

You will gain experts at some point, particularly if you aim towards it. The problem is that what is going on is completely hidden from the user interface and it just happens seemingly at random. If you don't read the code or just happen to spot the pattern, you are at high risk of triggering the bug where the experience towards becoming an expert will be reset. If it takes a minimum of 20 turns and you just happen to reset every 5-10 turns, then yeah you won't gain any experts at all. The AI attempts to reset every single turn, which is obviously not good.

I don't have a problem with the current system in terms of balance. Often by the time you start to gain experts through work experience, you will need more than one and it takes ages to get them through work. It's also uncertain how long because once they are experienced enough to become experts, they don't actually unlock experts, but rather gain a percentage change to become one at random each turn. Sending units to the natives or schools will always be better.

Also we have to remember that gaining experts through work solves the issue that certain experts can only be gained from natives and there is no code to ensure that all native experts are available in all games or the only one is far away. Gaining the ability to make an expert out of "nothing" means you aren't at a huge long term disadvantages if you can't get the expert(s) you need for your terrain/bonuses while other players can gain the experts they need for their terrain/bonuses.

Did they give up on "Display hidden parameters(lbd etc.) when inside the city view" ? I would like to know if a unit can promote.

 

[Nightinggale]

Did they give up on "Display hidden parameters(lbd etc.) when inside the city view" ? I would like to know if a unit can promote.

That's still an option for custom games and multiplayer. Technically it can be turned into a map option, which will then be a question when starting a new game. However it requires way more development time to implement and maintain it like that. I have added the 1/2 plot colony radius as a map option because I view that one as important for easy access (still not released), but considering the workload that's not something I will do with all the options.

 

[fatihdal]

That's still an option for custom games and multiplayer.

Which option is it? no variables hidden option does not seem to show colonist info.

 

[Nightinggale]

Which option is it? no variables hidden option does not seem to show colonist info.

Custom game, in the bottom middle there are a bunch of checkboxes. It's one of the last. You might have to scroll down to see it. It's named something like "reveal hidden values" or something like that.