1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Learning through hard work - good but bad?

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by Alignn, Jan 17, 2019.

  1. Alignn

    Alignn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    As much as I love this mechanic and enjoy getting a "free" expert, I think it might be bad for balance. It makes experts much less valuable, since you'll just get them anyway eventually, and I'm much less reluctant to use the clear specialty function since a specialist I have no immediate use for is less useful than a free colonist that can learn a new skill.

    And the education system is pretty much eclipsed by this mechanic, mainly something I use for indentured servants and political refugees, especially with the new restrictions on what can be learned with a basic school etc.

    Maybe education could be a resource that builds up to 100 or so, and then you can promote one worker in the settlement to be an expert at what they're already doing?
     
  2. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    6,553
    Location:
    Chicago
    I don't think it's occurrence is so frequent to screw up the balance. I'm currently doing quick domination games and in my latest one, it didn't ever occur once. Except for colonists becoming vet soldiers. ;)
    But then it's sometimes a case of perception. The larger the empire the more likely one will pop frequently enough to think it might be too much.
     
  3. Alignn

    Alignn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    Hm, I am playing as Denmark... Maybe it's just that I underuse the regular education mechanics.
     
  4. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    6,553
    Location:
    Chicago
    In my domination games, I very rarely ever build a school. Hammers are more important as political points
     
  5. ConjurerDragon

    ConjurerDragon Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Rhineland-Palatinate
    Doesn’t the leader Egede of Denmark have "sophisticated" and as such a bonus to learn faster from hard work than normal?
     
  6. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,986
    There are a number of tickets regarding this issue:
    You will gain experts at some point, particularly if you aim towards it. The problem is that what is going on is completely hidden from the user interface and it just happens seemingly at random. If you don't read the code or just happen to spot the pattern, you are at high risk of triggering the bug where the experience towards becoming an expert will be reset. If it takes a minimum of 20 turns and you just happen to reset every 5-10 turns, then yeah you won't gain any experts at all. The AI attempts to reset every single turn, which is obviously not good.

    I don't have a problem with the current system in terms of balance. Often by the time you start to gain experts through work experience, you will need more than one and it takes ages to get them through work. It's also uncertain how long because once they are experienced enough to become experts, they don't actually unlock experts, but rather gain a percentage change to become one at random each turn. Sending units to the natives or schools will always be better.

    Also we have to remember that gaining experts through work solves the issue that certain experts can only be gained from natives and there is no code to ensure that all native experts are available in all games or the only one is far away. Gaining the ability to make an expert out of "nothing" means you aren't at a huge long term disadvantages if you can't get the expert(s) you need for your terrain/bonuses while other players can gain the experts they need for their terrain/bonuses.
     
    Alignn likes this.
  7. Alignn

    Alignn Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Gender:
    Male
    Right, which I only belatedly realized is probably why it seemed powerful to me - or at least more palatable than the standard education system, which takes a potential worker out of the system for a good long while.
     
  8. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    6,553
    Location:
    Chicago
    What activity causes these "resets"?
     
  9. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    3,986
    Changing the profession. It has a counter of turns of experience, but if the profession is different from the profession last turn, then it resets the counter. This is particularly bad for fishermen because it's not uncommon for a pirate to force colonists to move away from fishing and say work on a building. Even if you move the unit back ASAP, it still had one turn of not being a fisherman and as such has reset the experience.
     
  10. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    6,553
    Location:
    Chicago
    Thank you, that makes it clear.
     
  11. lyciummusic

    lyciummusic Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    6
    Does resetting experience include changing plots as well? I sometimes do that, giving best spot for expert and moving colonist to another position to keep working same profession.
     
  12. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2011
    Messages:
    4,446
    Location:
    Stuttgart, Germany
    As far as I remember my old "Learining by doing" code, just changing the plot (to another one with the same "Profession") should not reset the counter.
    (The "Profession" needs to stay the same.)
     
  13. FaarmAnimal

    FaarmAnimal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2019
    Messages:
    53
    I like the mechanic and I don't think it needs changing.
     
  14. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    6,553
    Location:
    Chicago
    Ditto
     
  15. Drunk-Monk

    Drunk-Monk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    18
    I think the mechanic needs to be changed. At the moments its poorly implemented, the ideas put forward in the github threads would do alot to resolve its many issues.
     
  16. FaarmAnimal

    FaarmAnimal Chieftain

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2019
    Messages:
    53
    From the github (posted by Nightinggale):

    "There is a feature called "Learning by doing" where units remembers how many turns it has worked in a certain profession. If it has worked enough turns it gets a chance to become professional.

    There are a few problems though.

    1) it's invisible in the GUI
    2) it's an int and it's reset if the profession changes
    3) the AI is moving units around in colonies way too often to make use of this"

    If these issues can be addressed then great. As long as the the mechanic is not removed entirely then I'm happy.
     

Share This Page