Lebensraum - Alternate Ideas Brainstorm

[Stalker0]

Lets brass tax Lebensraum. We have had numerous discussions about this tenent in the past, and we always come back to the following conclusions:

• The tenent is OP
• The tenent is so cool and fun we couldn't bare to part with it.

So this discussion is going to be different. I normally debate on how to make a balanced Tenent, but I'm not doing that here. We have an OP tenent that we love, so we are staying OP. What I'm debating is, is there a tenent that is still OP, somethign that still gives you crazy benefits....but is a BIT more balanced than what we have today.

To start, this isn't about yields. We could pile on yields to the tenent, but that's not the point. Lebensraum changes the game, that's what makes it so crazy and cool. A replacement tenent would need to also alter gameplay in a pretty radical way to be a worthy successor.

So put your balance glasses by the door, lets get crazy (but not too crazy).


Some initial ideas:

• Enemy territory is treated as friendly for unit healing, upgrades, and any benefit that works "in friendly territory".

 

[CppMaster]

Could you remind what currently the tenet does?

 

[Rekk]

Receive 10 Culture and Golden Age Points when your borders expand, scaling with Era. Citadel tile-acquisition radius doubled.

His objection is that Lebensraum citadels gives the additional tiles.

 

[CppMaster]

Just spit balling ideas?

Give Great Generals and Great Admirals immunity to zone control and ignore terrain. Boring, right? But then they also kill all enemy units in adjancet tiles, like a mini nuke!

Could also do less damage for more boring and balanced version.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

It was OP when it synergized with Authority's production on tile acquisition, currently on immortal i don't even pick it unless i'm having trouble against a fortified border.
I think it even needs a buff to be on par with other t1 tenets

 

[msw1]

It becomes OP when you stockpile great generals throughout the game/faith purchase a bunch of them and then tunnel through enemy territory during a peace treaty. You can annihilate your strongest neighbor without them ever having a chance if you tunnel all the way to their capital, claim all land around it, surround the city with your six strongest land units and surround those with artilleries. I have done this and as soon as the peace treaty ended declared war and taken my opponent's 3-4 largest cities in one turn. They can do nothing because we don't have open borders, so beyond a garrison they can't bring in their military within a few tiles of their own cities. Very fun but feels like cheating.

 

[pineappledan]

Could make GGenerals treat foreign-owned land as if it were neutral land when placing citadels.

You can already plant citadels in neutral land adjacent to your owned land, but if your land is pushed up against a foreign border you have to plant the citadel inside your own land.
If your GGenerals could ignore this and plant citadels in foreign land as if it were neutral then you could still get the 2 tile projection and leapfrog effect that Lebensraum gives, but without the massive 2 tile radius that eats tiles in all directions, instead of just the direction you were headed.

Don't know if that would be hard to do, but it seems doable.

 

[Rekk]

Could make GGenerals treat foreign-owned land as if it were neutral land when placing citadels.

You can already plant citadels in neutral land adjacent to your owned land, but if your land is pushed up against a foreign border you have to plant the citadel inside your own land.
If your GGenerals could ignore this and plant citadels in foreign land as if it were neutral then you could still get the 2 tile projection and leapfrog effect that Lebensraum gives, but without the massive 2 tile radius that eats tiles in all directions, instead of just the direction you were headed.

Don't know if that would be hard to do, but it seems doable.

If the improvement is placed using the same column as Eki, then it would require some jank in the code to carve out a GG exception, or a new column.

 

[Zuizgond]

I don't think I have seen AI using it once.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Could make GGenerals treat foreign-owned land as if it were neutral land when placing citadels.

You can already plant citadels in neutral land adjacent to your owned land, but if your land is pushed up against a foreign border you have to plant the citadel inside your own land.
If your GGenerals could ignore this and plant citadels in foreign land as if it were neutral then you could still get the 2 tile projection and leapfrog effect that Lebensraum gives, but without the massive 2 tile radius that eats tiles in all directions, instead of just the direction you were headed.

Don't know if that would be hard to do, but it seems doable.

If i remember correctly, the ability to plant citadels in opponent-owned tile if it was adjacent to your border during war was a thing and got removed long time ago because it was "abusable".

 

[azum4roll]

Certainly not as abusable as the current version.

 

[Rompersenor]

What about leaving it is as it is, but changing the game rules so you cannot build a citadel on a tile that has been acquired by a citadel (any citadel, any time - some flag for each tile needed in code?). Cool boom feeling remains, but not as abusable.

SIDENOTE: In my (immortal) games, autocracy AIs never wins and often struggles, might need buff somewhere.

 

[looorg]

Isn't Lebensraum about landgrabbing. So to remove the land acquisition would be kind of odd. If nothing else I would make it like the American ability to buy land but the "buy" it with another currency, perhaps culture or faith instead of gold. That or allowing them to plonk the citadel one tile owned by another player but bordering your own land.

 

[Rekk]

If i remember correctly, the ability to plant citadels in opponent-owned tile if it was adjacent to your border during war was a thing and got removed long time ago because it was "abusable".

How long ago?

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

How long ago?

Long long fime ago , back when version naming followed a different formula, probably like 6 or 7 years

 

[KlHannibal2]

Could make GGenerals treat foreign-owned land as if it were neutral land when placing citadels.

You can already plant citadels in neutral land adjacent to your owned land, but if your land is pushed up against a foreign border you have to plant the citadel inside your own land.
If your GGenerals could ignore this and plant citadels in foreign land as if it were neutral then you could still get the 2 tile projection and leapfrog effect that Lebensraum gives, but without the massive 2 tile radius that eats tiles in all directions, instead of just the direction you were headed.

Don't know if that would be hard to do, but it seems doable.

I like this idea. It keeps having many generals useful. What do you think of adding on top the damage to surrounding enemy units when building a citadel, that the Zulu GG once had?

 

[Zuizgond]

How about citadels can't be placed within 2 tiles of another citadel (up from 1 tile currently)

 

[N.Core]

It becomes OP when you stockpile great generals throughout the game/faith purchase a bunch of them and then tunnel through enemy territory during a peace treaty. You can annihilate your strongest neighbor without them ever having a chance if you tunnel all the way to their capital, claim all land around it, surround the city with your six strongest land units and surround those with artilleries. I have done this and as soon as the peace treaty ended declared war and taken my opponent's 3-4 largest cities in one turn. They can do nothing because we don't have open borders, so beyond a garrison they can't bring in their military within a few tiles of their own cities. Very fun but feels like cheating.

Could make Lebensraum only affect future GG, so then you can't abuse it by stockpiling GGs.

 

[statusquo]

So put your balance glasses by the door, lets get crazy (but not too crazy).

Just a random thought, maybe this tennet could allow to build fortification next to another fortification, but cannot be adjecent to two fortification at the same time? And give like additional 10-15 extra defence.
Could also do something like "claim one random nearby tile, if its not already claimed".
But im not sure, if it is consistent enought with the "Lebensraum" wording.
Lebensraum for me was ideology, that was supporting invading other countries, which for me sounds like a military focused economy, rather than fortification related trait.

 

[FinMc]

How about citadels can't be placed within 2 tiles of another citadel (up from 1 tile currently)

This is the best way to adjust it. The big issue with the policy is chaining citadels. This removes that issue.

Keeps the fun mechanic, disables the abuse.