Left wing or Right wing

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Stapel


I'd say economic growth is the only way to get wellfare of the people.

Then you are not left wing.

 

[Pikachu]

The 'Egoist Party' is right wing and the 'Envy party' is Left wing.

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by Jorge


Then you are not left wing.

hehe, Tell me something new !

But, apart from all different kinds of social stuff like state sponsored/organised education, healthcare or social security, economic growth is what makes these things possible.

Nothing, as in nada, niente, nichts, rien, can exist without profit! This also goes for governments! In the long run, a government cannot spend more money on said issues then the tax money it collects.

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Stapel


hehe, Tell me something new !

But, apart from all different kinds of social stuff like state sponsored/organised education, healthcare or social security, economic growth is what makes these things possible.

Nothing, as in nada, niente, nichts, rien, can exist without profit! This also goes for governments! In the long run, a government cannot spend more money on said issues then the tax money it collects.

But a good economy does not asure wellfare. Even more, the policies that allow higher economic growths often are not the ones that allow better standards of life for all the people. For example, it's clear that if everybody works 10 hours a day the production, and hence the economic growth, would be greater than working only 8. And people who like to work a lot often earn more money than people who don't like to work so much. But as a human being, your wellfare doesn't depend only on the money you earn, but also in your spare time for example. So economy, although is very important, should not be the main goal.

 

[Cilpot]

Originally posted by Stapel

Nothing, as in nada, niente, nichts, rien, can exist without profit! This also goes for governments! In the long run, a government cannot spend more money on said issues then the tax money it collects.

Or the oil revenues

 

[Hayek]

Originally posted by Free Enterprise
Ok, this is based on American politics therefore may have slightly differing terminology than in other regions/countries. This scale makes sense in practical terms therefore is highly useful.

Left Wing: Generally favor more extensive government involvement especially in economic. They do favor social control also in most or all ways although there is a common misconception here because liberals are not total left wingers.

Extreme Left: Communists(the most), Fascists(yep in U.S. terminology far left think about the similarities to communism.)

Moderate Left: Liberals-Democratic party ideology favors somewhat extensive government involvement in economic matters and certain social matters. However is hands-off in certain social matters which I would consider right wing. Democrats are generally associated with equality rather than liberty as a whole due to the fact liberty and equality cannot be truely merged.

Centrism: Would be a combo of Republicans and Democrats within a certain degree. For example could be 51%right-49%left or 51%left-49% right. Degree would extend to roughly 55%-45% probably.

Moderate Right: Conservatives-Republicans. These favor liberty generally rathern than equality. Generally most supportive of economic freedom(right) and not as supportive of certain social freedoms(left) although they support some social freedom like opposing affirmative action and quotas(government involvement). Favors free trade and legal immigration usually.

Far Right: Libertarian or Anarchist. Although this will probably be controversial it is true. The Libertarians have much more in common with the Republican party than with the Democratic one. These people support almost no or very limited government involvement in any regulatory matter that does not involvement crimes against other people's rights(like murder). Partial and full anarchists are the most extreme on this part of the spectrum(far right anti-government). The opposite of socialism and full government control.


Why don't I consider Fascist right wing? Well, they favor massive economic and social regulation. If I were to count the right as economic freedom and opposed to social freedom with left being opposite as some do that would lead one to think of BOTH facists and communists as being near the center of the spectrum thus screwing it up. Fascists and communists are very close together on the ideological spectrum, I do not consider them opposites as some do. Mussolini's quotes are sufficient proof as are the founders of Fascism's ideological statements.

Abortion cannot be counted as a freedom issue since certain Libertarians do in fact want abortion outlawed because the believe it is murder.


I am fully aware that classical liberal is not the same as 'modern' liberal. FDR and Wilson were instrumental in changing this in U.S. hence the seeming difference from many other countries in the definations of liberal.

My definition exactly! Nice username and signature, by the way.

I'm a libertarian with some affection for tories/republicans as well.

 

[phoenix_night]

Originally posted by tonberry
Every anarchist I know is either left wing or against any systems, right or left.

I don't see how they could possibly be. How can an anarchist be left wing? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Free Enterprise]

Originally posted by tonberry


Every anarchist I know is either left wing or against any systems, right or left.

First question: Are they socialist anarchists? Or are they Marxists? If so they are either not really anarchists or they believe in a state of 'society' that cannot exist. There is no possible way to maintain a egalitarian system without a government.

The only true anarchy is the lack of all government therefore pure undiluted freedom of action regardless of type. Other types are purely a pipe dream or require a government to actually implement their ideas. No society in anarchy nor 'community'.

 

[Hayek]

Originally posted by tonberry
Every anarchist I know is either left wing or against any systems, right or left.

Anarchists such as those protesting at WTO-meetings or those who support "Reclaim the Streets" would favour more laws against businesses, more laws on trade and stuff like that. Authoritarian if you ask me.

 

[Free Enterprise]

Originally posted by archer_007


I agree with you on all of your post except for this point. Fascists are not left-wing. Chaining the workers to the gears of capitalism, like Hitler did, is clearly right-wing philosophy.

You cannot chain workers to capitalism or else it ceases to be capitalism and becomes serfdom. Captialism requires freedom to work when and where you want(not to have it provided for you though). The fascists use similiar jargon to communists. Slavery, serfdom, and servitude are all opposed to capitalism.

Some quotes:

“If the bourgeoisie think they will find lightning conductors in us they are the more deceived; we must start work at once .... We want to accustom the working class to real and effectual leadership".

“Therefore I desire that this assembly shall accept the revindication of national trades unionism”

“If the 19th century has been the century of the individual (for liberalism means individualism), it may be conjectured that this is the century of the State."

“Laissez faire is out of date”

“The Socialist party reaffirms its eternal faith in the future of the Workers’ International, destined to bloom again, greater and stronger, from the blood and conflagration of peoples. It is in the name of the International and of Socialism that we invite you, proletarians of Italy, to uphold your unshakeable opposition to war”.

“For the proletariat must consider itself anti-patriotic by definition and necessity and made to realize that nationalism was a mask for rapacious militarism that should be left to the masters and that the national flag was, as Gustave Herve had said, a rag to be planted on a dunghill

“Fascism has taken up an attitude of complete opposition to the doctrines of Liberalism, both in the political field and in the field of economics”.

In this quote Liberalism would refer to capitalism along the lines of Adam Smith. Not the American left obviously though.

“It contained several demands that were decidedly radical: A progressive tax on capital and a tax of eighty-five percent on war profits, universal franchise for men and women, a national militia, a minimum wage, nationalization of the munition industries, worker’s participation in the management of industrial enterprises, the confiscation of all eccelesiastical property”.(Carsten)

 

[Free Enterprise]

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
Fascists are NOT far left! Is Pat Buchanan "far left"? Fascists are the extremity of the RIGHT wing, just the same as monarchists, reactionaries, etc.

Communism, theoretically, is definitely on the left though. Most real communist countries, being dictatorships, are actually on the right.

Alright, so the Republican party is moderate reactionary? Well, then what do you call tax cuts? Free trade? Increased military spending? Declaring war? Contract with America?(although some of that is not right-left ideology and can be used to dispel reactionary theories) Dictators aren't always reactionary either since they often institue revolutionary changes or even purges. Which sides right or left, supports capitalism and free market economics, then?

You scale has contradictions, you claim centralized and reactionary authority is right wing, yet you seem to insinuate the far left/communism is based on economics. Whether or not a government allows voting or is a dictatorship has little meaning to the right-left scale. That would mean all rightist oppose voting(at least to a certain degree like, perhaps restrictions), how convenient in a republic.

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
And libertarians belong to a whole 'nother wing of politics. Pretending that either political party adopts any libertarian ideas! ! Libertarians belong to a defunct political party - the Jeffersonian Democratic-Republicans, to which the modern Democratic party has only tenuous ties.

The idegological ties which are no more valid than claiming Republicans are tied to them because they attempted to invoke the memory of Jefferson after the union of the anti-slavery coalitions(conscience whigs, liberty party, barn burners=free soil+abolitionists+others=Republican.

Originally posted by Pontiuth Pilate
I'm just going by the overall scale. Everyone says that Al Franken and Hillary Clinton are on the left and Pat Buchanan and Michael Savage are on the right. Well that means that communism is on the FAR left and fascism is on the FAR right, because these are just the policies of these pundits taken to their natural EXTREMES.

As for your "authoritarian" scale.... calling Democrats more authoritarian than Fascists good one.

If you think Michael Savage is a fascists that is clearly incorrect. The left may call him that however an objective comparsion reveals something different. Savage the opposite of Hillary Clinton, hmmm odd rationale, opposite? What about a pure capitalist, non-interventionist? They would surely differ from Ill Hillary.

 

[Thadlerian]

Left-wing: Helping other people.
Right-wing: Helping oneself.

That's my opinion, at least, when it's all broken down to the basics.

 

[Richard III]

Originally posted by Jorge
Right wing: economy is the most important.

Left wing: people is the most important.

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that a large number of right wing people believe that the economy is most important because that's the best way to help people, and therefore people are most important to them?

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that many left-wingers beleive in "helping others" precisely because their means of doing so is actually the fastest way for them to help themselves?

 

[Jorge]

Originally posted by Richard III


I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that a large number of right wing people believe that the economy is most important because that's the best way to help people, and therefore people are most important to them?

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that many left-wingers beleive in "helping others" precisely because their means of doing so is actually the fastest way for them to help themselves?

Let's go first with your second statement. If a person supports left wing policies for it's own interest, or in a selfish way, then it's not a real left wing, because in other circunstances he might well support other policies. That's also true for any ideology.

As for your first statement, you are right (probably I made a mistake in writing that sentence). I was not trying to say that right wing people are evil and don't care for the people. They probably do, but they consider the economic issue as the more important to get that. Left wing consider the economy as one out of many things.

 

[newfangle]

For the longest time, I wasn't exactly sure what left or right actually means. This thead does nothing to clarify that . They all just seem wrong . I'll choose the "i" wing thank you very much.

 

[phoenix_night]

You are obviously right wing...

 

[Akka]

Left-wing is the good guys, right-wing is the bad guys.

I like simple answer

 

[Cactus_Jack]

Originally posted by Free Enterprise
Ok, this is based on American politics therefore may have slightly differing terminology than in other regions/countries. This scale makes sense in practical terms therefore is highly useful.

Left Wing: Generally favor more extensive government involvement especially in economic. They do favor social control also in most or all ways although there is a common misconception here because liberals are not total left wingers.

Extreme Left: Communists(the most), Fascists(yep in U.S. terminology far left think about the similarities to communism.)

Moderate Left: Liberals-Democratic party ideology favors somewhat extensive government involvement in economic matters and certain social matters. However is hands-off in certain social matters which I would consider right wing. Democrats are generally associated with equality rather than liberty as a whole due to the fact liberty and equality cannot be truely merged.

Centrism: Would be a combo of Republicans and Democrats within a certain degree. For example could be 51%right-49%left or 51%left-49% right. Degree would extend to roughly 55%-45% probably.

Moderate Right: Conservatives-Republicans. These favor liberty generally rathern than equality. Generally most supportive of economic freedom(right) and not as supportive of certain social freedoms(left) although they support some social freedom like opposing affirmative action and quotas(government involvement). Favors free trade and legal immigration usually.

Far Right: Libertarian or Anarchist. Although this will probably be controversial it is true. The Libertarians have much more in common with the Republican party than with the Democratic one. These people support almost no or very limited government involvement in any regulatory matter that does not involvement crimes against other people's rights(like murder). Partial and full anarchists are the most extreme on this part of the spectrum(far right anti-government). The opposite of socialism and full government control.


Why don't I consider Fascist right wing? Well, they favor massive economic and social regulation. If I were to count the right as economic freedom and opposed to social freedom with left being opposite as some do that would lead one to think of BOTH facists and communists as being near the center of the spectrum thus screwing it up. Fascists and communists are very close together on the ideological spectrum, I do not consider them opposites as some do. Mussolini's quotes are sufficient proof as are the founders of Fascism's ideological statements.

Abortion cannot be counted as a freedom issue since certain Libertarians do in fact want abortion outlawed because the believe it is murder.




I am fully aware that classical liberal is not the same as 'modern' liberal. FDR and Wilson were instrumental in changing this terminology in the U.S. hence the seeming difference from many other countries in the definition of liberal.

This is so wrong on so many levels. Ok look at it like this. Who did the west suport in the 30s up untill the world war? The facists thats who. The capitalists would rather have a facist system than a comminist one. Powerfull industrialists loved the Nazis, who do you think they backed them finacing them??

What is the USA's pentagon milltray complex funded by public money then? All goverments control the economy to some degree or other. If you consider facists left wing cuase of that, you would have to consider the USA leftys as well. A lot of technology research is subsidised by tax payers money. Forc example computers wouldnt exist in a free market, cuase they where not profitable. When will people realise that the free market is a myth. If there was such a thing how comes third world countrys dont get to trade fairly? How comes so many parts of economy in the USA and britain get subsidises to help them out?

 

[MCdread]

Originally posted by Akka
Left-wing is the good guys, right-wing is the bad guys.

I like simple answer

So... are you a bad guy or a good one?

 

[Cactus_Jack]

Originally posted by Richard III


I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that a large number of right wing people believe that the economy is most important because that's the best way to help people, and therefore people are most important to them?

I suppose it hasn't occurred to you that many left-wingers beleive in "helping others" precisely because their means of doing so is actually the fastest way for them to help themselves?

Thats why theres 5 million homeless people in America, and 95% of the wealth is owned by 5%. Its could be even worse now, as that was a statistic i heard a few years back.