Legalism, better early or later?

[ezbutton]

Tradition has always been my favorite opening tree especially after G&K with the fixes and buffs to tradition. I was wondering for a speed cultural victory, is postponing legalism worthwhile?

I know prior to G&K legalism was most often used in opera houses or museums for culture victories and with the fix it makes it much more manageable to pop legalism earlier rather than try to coincide legalism with acoustics tech. But then they changed tradition finisher to add four free aquaducts and you don't even need the tech to receive them! So my current strategy is to build a monument early so that at least my capital gets the free amphitheater and rush to finish tradition to get the aquaducts to start pushing out the population I need for production and specialists.

Also is saving legalism worthwhile at the expense of growth? Hermitage comes at architecture tech giving a little bit of time to actually hard build opera houses before hermitage even comes into play. Although the extra gold from maintenance free opera houses or museums would be nice I don't think its a good reason to save legalism.

On another note, does legalism work with beliefs? For instance, if I pick up cathedrals would it pop into that?

 

[Callonia]

Don't know.. I use the legalism to get four monuments built early on >.> Its generally a 3rd or 4th social policy i pick up, i alternate between honor and tradition as map dictates.

 

[S.K. Ren]

The aqueducts are just icing. Im still a fan of the fast 4 cities and save Legalism for Museums or at least Opera Houses route. Throw in religion for the Cathedral (+3 Culture and another specialist slot for MORE G.Artists) and you'll be rolling in culture in no time.

 

[Veneke]

I've never been convinced of the idea of delaying Legalism unless your primary social policy tree is Liberty. If you're going for the Tradition tree entirely though then delaying Legalism means delaying Monarchy and Landed Elite which are far too useful in the early game to pass up.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

I usually unlock legalism early to get that free amphitheatre. Seems nice to have an early specialist to create a quick great artist. Pop him on a strategic ressource and you have a great tile.

By the time I unlock opera houses I have the money to quick-buy one anyway.

 

[MadDjinn]

it just depends on you VC type.

Going Culture? likely useful to wait until you have 3/4 cities (depending on how many you want to make) with amphitheatres in them to get the free Opera houses. So you can take it 50+ turns earlier than before (vanilla waits til Acoustics) and then move on to finish tradition.

or just plow through it if you're not going culture. Free culture buildings when you're not focused on them is a nice thing - even the free monument helps to expand early borders.

 

[chazzycat]

legalism is awesome with Ethiopia. Free steles give you a huge leg up in the religion game.

 

[ezbutton]

legalism is awesome with Ethiopia. Free steles give you a huge leg up in the religion game.

I don't doubt that, but I was actually playing Askia on emperor and was debating to pop it for mud pyramids only to realize it was probably a bad idea since the piety tree double the construction speed of temples and the mud pyramids are already maintenance free. Actually when I did try to pop the pyramids it gave me amphitheaters instead which was probably better but wasn't what I expected, so I reloaded and waited it out till I finished my amphitheaters for the opera houses. By the time I went back into tradition for it I was already done piety, but then I started to fall behind in tech and missed a few important wonders (Alhambra, SC and Leaning Tower), so I'm most likely to re-roll and try a few more things and mostly importantly try to stay on-top in tech.

 

[telekinetic136]

With Siam, my personal favorite for cultural games, I like to delay to get free Wats for all my cities. When not Siam I tend to get it early for high populations.

 

[Slvynn]

I usually unlock legalism early to get that free amphitheatre. Seems nice to have an early specialist to create a quick great artist. Pop him on a strategic ressource and you have a great tile.

By the time I unlock opera houses I have the money to quick-buy one anyway.

will second this approach.... i think best use of Legalism is to get amphitheaters

 

[anandus]

I now pick legalism as soon as I've got four amphi's set up.
I really like the fact that you'll get the next building anyway, instead of needing the necessary tech beforehand. I don't need to wait for acoustics as in vanilla, but can get it asap and still do a quick hermitage as soon as I hit acoustics.

 

[Calouste]

I've never been convinced of the idea of delaying Legalism unless your primary social policy tree is Liberty. If you're going for the Tradition tree entirely though then delaying Legalism means delaying Monarchy and Landed Elite which are far too useful in the early game to pass up.

Same here. If you have a nice site for your capital, it is a waste to forego all that growth and all that cash for some hammers a few millenia down the line.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

It's what I used to do too, but I'm coming to the way of thinking that 16 culture/turn later isn't as good as 8/turn now . . . esp. when you remember that the early policies are cheaper than the ones you'll be getting with the opera houses or whatever.

 

[budweiser]

I was playing the Dutch last night and I went full Liberty first. Then I opened tradition as my second tree. I tried to time my science and my culture to hit at the same time for three free Opera Houses but missed it by 1 turn. It was getting late and I almost resigned at that point. But for some reason I hit Next Turn and the Opera Hoses came in for free at that point. I did not know it worked like that. So, I saved the game and went to bed. So now i will have a fairly early Hermitage when I resume play.

What a map it was! No less than 8 seafood resources in my second city location. I have never seen that many. I really wanted to get The Colossus but wasnt fast enough finishing Liberty to bulb it with a GE it went on turn 78.

 

[anandus]

If you don't have the necessarry tech for the next culture building, but already have all the possible culture buildings then the game remembers that and gives you the buildings as soon as you hit the tech.

For instance, if you have a monument everywhere, but not yet have Drama & Poetry, and choose legalism then you'll get free amphitheatres as soon as you hit Drama & Poetry
Or in your case, if you have an amphitheatre everywhere, but haven't teched acoustics yet and then choose legalism then you'll get your free opera houses as soon as you hit acoustics.

 

[Fragamemnon]

If you are in Tradition as your first tree already it seems like a waste not to get the two best growth/happiness options ASAP. On Immortal+ the Wonder policy isn't going to help you beat the AI to the early wonders without you falling way way behind, and the garrison bonus, while clutch, isn't the kind of long-term multiplier that faster early growth or happiness is.

If you are not in Tradition as a main tree, going into it just for Legalism seems real poor. The next tier of trees are all very strong now and I'd rather have a pick from there than four free buildings. I mean, even if they were Opera Houses, you are still expending a policy pick for buildings instead of working on finishing an advanced tree.

Maybe this made more sense back in vanilla when piety for non-culture wins was bad, city states were so easily bought off that patronage wasn't all that great unless you were aiming for a dedicated diplo win, commerce was a trainwreck, and Rationalism was mostly OP due to turbo-RA strategies. I don't think it is the case now and my experiences playing G&K point to hitting up two tier 1 policy trees as extremely underwhelming in practice.

 

[MaximusK]

I usually unlock legalism early to get that free amphitheatre. Seems nice to have an early specialist to create a quick great artist. Pop him on a strategic ressource and you have a great tile.

I share your preference, if I'm going to take tradition I finish it completely before moving on . . . even if that only means free monuments in 1-2 cities beside my cap.

I will however try the following sometime soon (still have the win the game on 3 of the new civs before other experiments) . . .

Byzantium -> Go liberty, build 4 cities. Take Cathedrals / Mosques / Pagodas as the 2 follower and bonus and then take Legalism for opera houses. Take a missionary/spread oriented enhancer. Might be fun.

 

[bhavv]

I found the best compromise is to use Legalism for Ampitheatres. I do Tradition > Liberty > Republic > Collective Rule > Aristocracy > Legalism > Rest of Tradition, and fill the right side of Liberty later. Taking both Tradition + Liberty is still very very strong, theres no need to only take one of them.