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Legendary Earth, a TSL Map [Brainstorming]

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Creation & Customization' started by Dark_Jedi06, Aug 12, 2016.

  1. Dark_Jedi06

    Dark_Jedi06 "Deus ex Machina."

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    Introduction
    The goal of this thread is to brainstorm ideas and get community feedback for what will be the spiritual successor to my popular Legendary Earth Mod that I developed during the initial months of Civ V's release and updated through to Brave New World. That version initially started as a mod for my own personal use (I'm very finicky about my Earth maps in Civ) but eventually grew into a rather popular map garnering a total of ~70,500 downloads between Civfanatics and Steam to date and earning a 5-star rating on Steam. With the new version for Civ VI, my goal is to make a map that is more community-driven and less about my personal preference; hence the purpose of this thread. I welcome any and all ideas as well as any criticisms for those who have played my Civ V map.

    Announced Civilizations/City-States
    Below I've uploaded a map that shows the current known civilizations and city-states, as well as confirmed natural wonders, to begin getting a better idea of how civilizations will need to be balanced in terms of space for expansion, access to natural wonders (for those all-important adjacency bonuses!) and threat from barbarians. For example, it will have to be taken into account that England will always have access to the White Cliffs of Dover without competition, while a civ like China is bound to have huge tracts of unsettled land that will be churning out barbarians at a frightening pace.​


    Last Updated: 10.11.2016

    Brainstorming
    • Old World Start
      I definitely prefer to play an Earth map with an old world start for the "realism" factor. However, in Civ V it was very frustrating that the AI rarely ever colonized the New World. The initial line-up civs will also determine if this is possible. For my previous mod, I added city-states to make the New World feel more populous and to add an incentive for exploring it. However, with the complexity of the new city-state mechanics adding a city-state will not be as simple. In general, which is preferred by other players?
    • On Geography
      My goal with my Earth maps is to focus on marrying both realism and balance. For example, my previous map had the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea separated by one tile of land, on which either Istanbul or Constantinople was always built, therefore always linking the two seas. Also, the Black Sea had enough water tiles to be considered ocean so cities placed on its coast could construct naval units. This always seemed to be a polarizing design decision.

      With the change in game mechanics, these types of geographical decisions have to be approached differently. With the function of the harbor district there are many more interesting choices that can be made regarding the placement of cities for coastal access. It is likely that most European capitals will be considered "coastal" as they will be in range of placing a harbor within the 2nd or 3rd ring. This will really boost competition in the Atlantic Ocean, North Sea and Baltic Sea which would previously would have be dominated by the civs like England and Portugal that had directly coastal capitals. Other places where this could become a serious strategic choice are in the Middle East/Sinai; for example, Egypt may have the choice of placing their harbor on the Mediterranean Sea or the Red Sea, thereby determining where they can project their naval power. I foresee a lot of other design decisions that will require really examining the effects of terrain/geography on strategic choices, just as the developers intended.
    • Eureka/Inspiration Moments
      The Eureka/Inspiration mechanic may offer a tough challenge when it comes to balancing. For example, playing as France, within the first few turns you could meet England, discover the Cliffs of Dover AND discover a new continent, thereby boosting 2 early game technologies and 1 civic. Significant early game boosts like this could lead to a fairly consistent (from game to game) snowballing effect for the same civilizations. By the same token, it may be a needed boost to the civs that are otherwise going to be cramped and starved for room to expand.
    • DLC Civilizations
      I feel like this can be a point of contention and division in the community. As someone who will be pre-ordering the game (thus having early access to the Aztecs) and will be getting the deluxe edition for those four initial DLC, the early versions of this map are likely to require DLC civilizations to play. In my previous map, I ended up making several versions later on that had different sets of civs, including one just for DLC civs, but this is something I likely wouldn't tackle for quite some time.
    • Map Size
      According to the developers, Civ VI will feature larger maps. This is great news! Legendary Earth will always use the largest map size possible, so my apologies to those with slower machines.
    • Map Projection
      Picking the right map projection can be difficult. While places like Europe, the British Isles and Japan will always be upscaled in the final product, having a good map to start from really helps. I would appreciate some suggestions from cartography inclined on this.

    That's it for now. Please offer your owner comments and suggestions. I can't wait for the release of Civ VI and the ability to get started on this project. Come on October 21st!​
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2016
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  2. JimmyBanks

    JimmyBanks Chieftain

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    Really looking forward to seeing what you come up with. Don't have any suggestions at this stage but will keep an eye on this thread.
     
  3. TheHolyGranoli

    TheHolyGranoli Chieftain

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    What do you think about shrinking the Atlantic to encourage the AI to naturally move towards the NW? I'm not quite sure about what could be done to encourage expansion to South America if a pseudo-historical scenario is your goal. Imo, it's best to wait to see the new AI before making any real plans.

    I certainly hope a Rhyse tribute will make its way to CivVI.
     
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  4. Haig

    Haig Warlord

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    Well as Civ 6 has now the Continents -mechanic and policies and abilities associated with it, I bet that the AI is now more expansive and will create colonies abroad.

    Like England's AI's Agenda is to colonize as many continents as possible and has bonuses for units and dockyards in colonies.
     
  5. Dark_Jedi06

    Dark_Jedi06 "Deus ex Machina."

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    I forgot all about agendas! Duh. I suspect that you're right that a lot of these changes to the AI should make the lack of colonization in Civ V a non-issue. I'm leaning towards starting out trying to make the map with an old world start and going from there...we obviously need to know the full line up civs first.

    I really can't wait to see how the historical agendas will play out in general, I suspect there could be some really cool interactions.
     
  6. MAHRana

    MAHRana Chieftain

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    I'd like to contribute more this time round, even if it's just things like my opinions or advice, it was a well done map.

    I feel like all tiles in Australia should yield -1 food (throughout history it was a hard land to tame because of factors not in the game like bush fires, wild animals etc.). It would also simulate history more since it won't be very colonizable until the later game by more advanced civs that have researched something like fertilizers and can build hospitals. It'll give the map an extra depth imho

    Black Sea cities having harbors isn't too bad, since it helps keeping control of the Bosphorus more competitive (what's the point of having harbors and stuff without having access to other waters expect for trading across the sea?)

    Randomly generated events would help European civs colonize the Americas if you wanna go that direction (gift them settlers and caravels from the Renaissance Era in the Atlantic or something)

    There was a scenario made (i think by FramedArchitecture or somebody) that developed some really interesting mechanics. If i recall it set boundaries to different civs as to where they could settle so if implemented in an Earth map the Iroquois won't so easily rule over North America lol

    And dynamic city names, i wouldn't mind helping in this case as well as others im quite sure, that would be fun
     
  7. Dark_Jedi06

    Dark_Jedi06 "Deus ex Machina."

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    I like some of your suggestions, however I'm always wary of editing/changing the game rules. My goal is try to keep the map as "pure" as possible without altering the rules of the base game. Though I will certainly be changing Germany's capital to Berlin from Aachen. :crazyeye:

    However, after seeing the Civilopedia in the live stream today I know that balance is going to be a HUGE issue with the initial iterations of this map. Europe and the Middle East are bursting at the seams and Africa, Asia and the Americas are empty. I've updated the map in the OP to reflect what we now know.

    I think an Old World start is definitely going to be a requirement, otherwise America, Brazil and the Aztecs would be instant runaways. Balancing out Africa and Asia is going to be hard...here's to hoping the DLC civs are geographically diverse and are released quickly. :cry:
     
  8. agonistes

    agonistes wants his subs under ice!

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    I agree that the lack of Europe AI colonizing the New World (or anything beyond Africa for that matter) was/is a pain in Civ V. I spend way too much time colonizing for them and gifting them cities.

    Plus, they've gone back to localized happiness, which suggests to me that they have veered away from trying to force the player (and AI) to go high - and, as well, the addition of ideologies in V also indicated, to me, that there was an in-house change in direction regarding high vs. wide.

    Probably there will be a better cost-benefit conflict with choosing to go wide for the player, but I agree... it appears that at least some of the civs will be expansion monsters.

    Really not sure what to brainstorm at this point. Have to play a few games to see how the AI operates.
     
  9. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Chieftain

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    I wanted to bring up the fact that the Capital of a Civ is dependent upon who its leader is. So there's probably some support for it in the game, but you'll need to have Germany start in Aachen if the ruler is Barbarossa and start in Berlin if the leader is Bismarck or whatever.

    If that's too much headache, go ahead and put them both in Berlin. But since we're brainstorming, I just wanted to bring that up.
     
  10. Mobfire

    Mobfire Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool

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    Given the huge clutter in Europe and the Middle East, as well as the emptiness in most of the rest of the world, I think it would be best if you renamed some of the city states from cluttered zones into appropriate counterparts in non-cluttered zones. For example, Brussels, which gives bonuses towards wonders, could be renamed to Tikal, or Geneva could become Caral. If you want I could help you with renaming.
     
  11. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Chieftain

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    That's a good point. Also note that the City-states have unique icons. Some are more easily interchangeable than others (like Lisbon is just waves, obvi because they intend to replace it with a Portuguese Civ and then give another CS its bonus).
     
  12. Mobfire

    Mobfire Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool

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    True. For some of the City States, new icons would have to be made, but it's much less work than making a new city state from scratch. If new icons are made, they should be basic enough that they could be reused if one of the city states name is used in a DLC (or even modded civ, if the OP wants to make the map mod-friendly).
     
  13. Dark_Jedi06

    Dark_Jedi06 "Deus ex Machina."

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    This is a great idea that hadn't crossed my mind! Much simpler then creating a new city state and it appeals to the purist inside me, since it would still utilize default game rules. Creating a new icon and changing around the names is definitely within the scope of my abilities.

    Good point...obviously upon release we're only going to have Greece with multiple leaders. But in the future, the civs will have to be modded to have the same capital city. Using Germany as an example, Aachen and Berlin are going to be a couple tiles away and Germany is always going to have the same start location regardless of the leader, so it needs to be consistent...and I much prefer to have Berlin as the capital. :mischief:
     
  14. Mobfire

    Mobfire Chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool

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    I just made a huge thread concerning a proposal for a mod that handles city state replacements, and if you read it you'll realize I took a lot of ideas from my previous posts here. Perhaps some of the work you do for your map could be used in a mod like the one I proposed if the idea ever gets realized.
     
  15. Atlas627

    Atlas627 Chieftain

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    It seems that Isabella for Spain will be one of the Deluxe Edition DLCs.

    Also, the devs mentioned in interviews that they have been taking TSL into account. There may be an official TSL mode. Regardless, there may be some sort of support for it. I certainly doubt that they would choose THIS iteration of civ to be the one time they introduce changing capitals per leader, without building in some sort of support for TSL. So you may be able to have Aachen and Berlin swap very easily.
     
  16. Brutus2

    Brutus2 Chieftain

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    Super excited for what you're doing here! I'm not sure what is or isn't possible in mods for Civ6 but the one thing that I did not like from TSL maps in Civ5 was that almost all of them forced you to use 22 or even all 48 civs on huge maps and you could only use the specific civs the author had chosen.

    I would really love a TSL map that allowed you to select exactly which civs you wanted and to remove the ones you did not want. So for example if I wanted a less crowded Europe, I could choose to remove some of those civs. This would be especially useful if the map came in different sizes (standard, large, huge).

    Looking forward to seeing what you create - Thanks for sharing your talents!
     
  17. HalveBlue

    HalveBlue Chieftain

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    I made a map in CiV that was based off a cordiform projection, which really created an interesting dynamic. The map was built on the largest settings and designed for the max amount of civs and CS.

    I quickly found out that Europe needed to be upsized, if only to accommodate the sheer amount of CS and civs that are located there. Using a combination of CS states as buffers, the 3-tile rule, and resource placement, I could get the AI to build about 3-4 cities in historical locations...more or less.

    The cordiform projection really helps to cut down some of the dead spaces like Central Asia or Siberia.

    The biggest issue I ran into was image deformation at the map edges. Australia has got ridiculously skewed dimensions on a cordiform map that's centered on the prime meridian. Also, the map limits in CiV ended up compressing the Pacific Ocean too much, pushing Australia and the Indonesian archipelago way too close to the Americas. The North Pole, on the other hand became an interesting spot for submarines :D

    I left the America's unsettled with the exception of a TON of barbarian camps. I was hoping that as the game progressed players would venture out and eventually find a pristine New World populated by wild natives. I also built in an access route that snaked from Scandinavia, along the southern edge of the North Pole, and then, via Iceland and Greenland, to Neufundland, hoping the AI would find it and maybe exploit it to found a settlement there. Unfortunately, in all the times I've played the map this never happened.

    Also, I could never quite find the right balance in strategic resource quantity - a few select tiles with high multiples of the resource, or many tiles with smaller quantities? I put down 22 of each luxury resources, although I gave some countries monopolies on certain resources (China and silk, for example).

    Anyway, I look forward to following your progress on this project.
     
  18. MaximusPlatypus

    MaximusPlatypus O.O

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    I just played the newest YNAEMP maps... I could select every Civ and whatever select modcivs (that obviously have TSL support) in the campaign.
     
  19. Dark_Jedi06

    Dark_Jedi06 "Deus ex Machina."

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    I can certainly understand why you would want such a feature, however my issue with such a system becomes one of balance. It becomes impossible to balance the map with such a feature. Gameplay balance is definitely one of the most important aspects of a custom map to me. Also, such a feature would also require more modding them I am familiar with.

    That's a very interesting projection to work off of and it definitely has some serious strategic implications around the north pole. It would definitely need some tweaking around maritime south east Asia and Australia. Do you have any screenshots of the map you made or is uploaded to Steam? I'd be interested to see it translated in-game. I'll definitely keep this in the back of my mind!
     
  20. HalveBlue

    HalveBlue Chieftain

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    I attached the map if you'd like to take a look at it. This is probably the 3rd or 4th version I have made of this map due to some unfortunate hard drive failures. :mad: I never uploaded any of them to steam as I never quite got through play testing them.

    They've definitely been fun to play on though. Using a cordiform projection changes the trajectory for a lot of things and that can lead to some interesting surprises while exploring. I was working on an improved version, but I got busy with school so I had to put it on the back burner. With Civ VI being announced I probably won't develop it any further. But I will definitely use it as a template for a Civ VI map.
     

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