[GS] Legendary Units, basically like world wonders, but military units.

Good idea


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Mik1984

Prince
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As the title pretty much explains it all, these units would be more powerful and more expensive and unique in their way, holding also some unique extra ability that gets passed along even to the successor unit it gets upgraded to.
You lock them down the same way as building a wonder, you must be first and there is only one such unit per game per type.
 
But what would those units be? I like the idea but there needs to be a sort of outline....

The first swordsman? The first chariot? The first SWAT?
 
Just some semi-historical semi-mythical unique units that the tech and civics tree would be peppered with, adding to the variety of existing units. Some of them would be direct "replacements"/"versions on steroids" for existing units, others would be completely besides the existing requirements and would not match the existing units.
 
Like the idea, but it will probably require redoing a bunch of the current Unique Units in order to Implement. As I understand you, Heroic Units would be individual units of greatly increased Power rather than general units that are peculiar because of technology or culture/sociology to a given State/Culture/Civ. That means that the current Unique Units are a combination of Heroic and Peculiar: Hoplites, Redcoats, Cossacks, Janissaries, etc. are just variations peculiar to given States. Other UUs are precisely those tiny fraction of the total force that are/could be Heroic: Berserkers (maybe 1 - 2% of the most Insane vikings), the Garde Imperiale (2 regiments out of 200+ in Napoleon's Army), Persian Immortals (10,000 men max out of armies of up to 100 - 200,000 men).

Examples of really Historically heroic and almost unbelievable Units might be:
Spartan Knights (in addition to Hoplites) - the 300 at Thermopolye, originally the Bodyguards of the King. Same as regular Hoplites, only in blood-red cloaks with bright red 'Lambdas' (upside down 'V' for Lacaedemon - 'Sparta') on their shields.
Guards Brigade (in addition to Redcoats) Originally just 3 regiments out of 100 +, the unit of the British Army that shattered the Garde Imperiale's 'last attack' at Waterloo.
Buffalo Soldiers - the 2 regiments of the US Cavalry that outperformed every other army unit in the 'Indian Wars' of the late 19th century - and one of them charged up the hill right beside the Rough Riders!
Legion Etrangère - French Foreign Legion to the monolingual out there. Cameron, Bir Hacheim, Dien Bien Phu: you could kill them, but you couldn't make them go away.

The point of Heroic Units, I would think though, is that you can't have more than 1 - 2 of them: that means there will have to be some very peculiar rules for how they are formed or obtained both to keep them completely unique and to keep them a tiny minority of the units on the map.
I would also think that to do them right, the Heroic Units need to be graphically different (as in the Spartan Knights example above) so that they are Obvious on the map, both to you and your opponent: The sight of "the red lambdas gleaming' coming at them out of the dust on the battlefield was enough to make several Greek armies run away without fighting!
That might, in fact, be one Overall Characteristic of Heroic Units: fighting them automatically reduces the Combat Strength of any opposing unit . . .
 
Just drop the idea 'Be the first to build'. . With this concept the first of such things came to mind was Helepolis, then Zheng He's fleet, and later Giant Landships.

Why? That is the entire point of these units, to basically be world wonders but units.

Blablaba something something ahistorical? Same applies to Japan building Piramids, while Chinese build the Oracle, basically exactly the same thing. There is nothing EXTRA that would be historically wrong in Cree building the 300.
 
I think the idea is interesting, I would tie it with a rework to great generals, as of now, you just keep them around for the passive bonus, and use its charge when it becomes useless. I think Great generals should be able to gain experience for winning battles, killing experienced units, beating other general led armies, etc. I think it would be neat if you could get one of said wonder units by using your GG charge once you've got enough experience with it.

It would allow the game to include all sort of famous units tied to It's general. Theban Sacred band, Praetorian guard, Swiss guard, Templar knights, Sohei warrior monks, and a bit etc.
 
If these legendary units are simply the first spear-man, the first swordsman etc, I would be really disappointed. Th point of researching technology in game is to provide you an edge on more advanced military unit, being advance in science already provide you military more power over other units, making the first unit created stronger is rather unecessary in my opinion, because that is just the nature of technology that have already made your first unit stronger than everyone else.

If we are talking about some truly heroic military regiment existed in history I would still disagree with it but to a less extent. The 300 in Thermopolye applies to every imagination I would have about a legendary unit, therefore I should be the unique unit of Greece under Gorgo. That is what unique units are, they are the most representative military achievement of that civilization, they covers that legendary units can be and makes this concept rather redundant.

However, number of civilizations in the game are limited, we want to have more interesting units but unable to build them, so my suggestion would be to give those legendary units whose civilization did not made into the game to military city-state, that would make more sense in my opinion.
 
The alternate approach is to have them as 'Wonder' units - i.e large-scale feats of mobile engineering. The types of units it would cover would be historical units such as:

Syracusia - Largest transport ship in antiquity
Nemi Ships - Caligula's giant floating palaces
Helepolis - Large movable siege towers
Louchuan - Giant Chinese floating river castles
Warwolf - the largest Trebuchet ever made
Atakebune - Japanese castle Ships
Dardanelles Gun - The Great Turkish Bombard
Schwerer Gustav - Railroad gun, largest-calibre rifled weapon ever used in combat and, the heaviest mobile artillery piece ever built
Hindenburg - Largest Zeppelin
Tsar Bomba - Most powerful nuclear weapon ever created
 
The alternate approach is to have them as 'Wonder' units - i.e large-scale feats of mobile engineering. The types of units it would cover would be historical units such as:

Syracusia - Largest transport ship in antiquity
Nemi Ships - Caligula's giant floating palaces
Helepolis - Large movable siege towers
Louchuan - Giant Chinese floating river castles
Warwolf - the largest Trebuchet ever made
Atakebune - Japanese castle Ships
Dardanelles Gun - The Great Turkish Bombard
Schwerer Gustav - Railroad gun, largest-calibre rifled weapon ever used in combat and, the heaviest mobile artillery piece ever built
Hindenburg - Largest Zeppelin
Tsar Bomba - Most powerful nuclear weapon ever created

Of course, the most interesting thing about this list is that while they were all engineering/scientific/mechanical 'Wonders', they were also in many cases either useless or extravagantly wasteful for any real-world purpose:
The Nemi Ships never left the lake on which they were built. "Floating Palace" is exactly what to call them, because they never actually went anywhere. You might also include here Ptolemy's (in)famous 40-er, the largest Polyreme 'warship' ever built: over 4000 crewmen and solders, but it never left Alexandria harbor!
The Warwolf, like most of them, was fearsome, but it threw a 300 pound stone weight and just 70 years later almost every Bombard could do the same thing, at higher velocities.
The Great Bombard took all day to reload and so couldn't be used against anything more mobile than Constantinople. Of course, this was typical of both Bombards and Trebuchets, but only 50 years after the 'Dardanelles Gun' did its dirty work, really mobile artillery with trunnions and trailed carriages made it as obsolete as a traction trebuchet.
Gustav and his Bromdenagian mate Dora were indeed the most colossal Cannon ever built, and like the previous examples, they could only be used against a target suitably Immobile, like Sevastopol. And even then, a single flight of medium bombers could deliver more tonnage of explosives than they could, and with less expenditure of manpower (the crew of Gustav was over 1500 men, not counting the antiaircraft regiment it took to protect it from the enemy's bombers) - and three years after Gustav bombarded Sevastopol, a single B-29 using conventional explosives could deliver twice the weight of Gustav's massive shells, to much greater range and with a crew of just 12 men, a saving of 1488 over Karl.
Hindenburg -"Oh the Humanity!" - enough said. Although you might also include the "Spruce Goose" or the "Ilya Murometz", each in their day the largest multi-engined fixed-wing aircraft built.
Tsar Bomba, or more accurately the RDS-202 Ivan or Vanya wasn't actually a 'bomb' at all, it was a test explosive to verify nuclear calculations and explosive configurations for other warhead/bomb designs. Mercifully, nothing derived from that test was ever detonated again, but it remains the most definitive version of a Terror Weapon, which puts it right in the same camp as the WarWolf or Dardanelles Gun - more effective against Enemy Morale than anything else.

Some other candidates for Gargantuan Wonder Construction 'Units' might be:
Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad, which by 1802 carried 140 guns on 4 full gundecks, making it the most heavily-armed wooden warship ever built. She was also about as nimble as a Hippotamus in High Heels, so got nicknamed "El Ponderoso" by her own crew!
Great Eastern - Isambard Brunel's largest iron ship ever built, so big that it couldn't even be launched without near-disaster and in the event, completely worthless for any commercial or military purpose. It managed, after several tries, to lay a trans-Atlantic telegraph cable.
Maus, the 150-ton Super Tank designed by the Nazis and still unfinished in 1945, which was probably just as well since it was only slightly more mobile than the Brandenburg Gate and so would have made a delightful target for the entire Soviet and US Air Forces.
 
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If these legendary units are simply the first spear-man, the first swordsman etc, I would be really disappointed. /QUOTE]
No, first, they wouldn't be just clones of existing units, and no, they would be relatively expensive, making them not an obvious choice to build, even if you unlock the tech, but you might decide to build them for era score. They would not be an attractive choice for a player that is struggling for production resources to build an army fast Just like regular wonders, the fact that you unlock them does not necessary mean it is worthwhile to build them.
What these units would have is a unique skill tagged to the unit as a unique promotion. So even if a unit of for example 300 would become obsolete, because no one build it, it would be still worthwhile to build, because it can upgrade for free to a pikeman(for free, because of the basic unit cost difference) , collect era score, and then have the unique promotion in that pikeman unit, and all future units it upgrades to.
 
No, first, they wouldn't be just clones of existing units, and no, they would be relatively expensive, making them not an obvious choice to build, even if you unlock the tech, but you might decide to build them for era score. They would not be an attractive choice for a player that is struggling for production resources to build an army fast Just like regular wonders, the fact that you unlock them does not necessary mean it is worthwhile to build them.
What these units would have is a unique skill tagged to the unit as a unique promotion. So even if a unit of for example 300 would become obsolete, because no one build it, it would be still worthwhile to build, because it can upgrade for free to a pikeman(for free, because of the basic unit cost difference) , collect era score, and then have the unique promotion in that pikeman unit, and all future units it upgrades to.


If I understand it correctly, say I am the first player who researched riding and I am able to build horseman now. As part of the privilege of being the first, I can build normal horseman and one special horseman that is more expansive but also more powerful?

In terms of mechanics that looks very clear, but it still does not explain itself why it needs to be in the game, when the superiority of might is already achieved by technology. If we want some cool units we can always turn to unique units from civilizations and city states.
 
If I understand it correctly, say I am the first player who researched riding and I am able to build horseman now. As part of the privilege of being the first, I can build normal horseman and one special horseman that is more expansive but also more powerful?

In terms of mechanics that looks very clear, but it still does not explain itself why it needs to be in the game, when the superiority of might is already achieved by technology. If we want some cool units we can always turn to unique units from civilizations and city states.

Yes, like everything else, you unlock the required technology or civic, you can build the legendary unit. It may be, but does not have to be unlocked by a tech or civic that unlocks regular units.

Edit: here is a nice idea, how about adopting government types for the first time with x slots or government plaza buildings can unlock these units?
 
here is a nice idea, how about adopting government types for the first time with x slots or government plaza buildings can unlock these units?
That seems both reasonable and doable, it would gives the government system more taste, and won't overlap with other stuffs.
 
Like the idea, but it will probably require redoing a bunch of the current Unique Units in order to Implement. As I understand you, Heroic Units would be individual units of greatly increased Power rather than general units that are peculiar because of technology or culture/sociology to a given State/Culture/Civ. That means that the current Unique Units are a combination of Heroic and Peculiar: Hoplites, Redcoats, Cossacks, Janissaries, etc. are just variations peculiar to given States. Other UUs are precisely those tiny fraction of the total force that are/could be Heroic: Berserkers (maybe 1 - 2% of the most Insane vikings), the Garde Imperiale (2 regiments out of 200+ in Napoleon's Army), Persian Immortals (10,000 men max out of armies of up to 100 - 200,000 men).

Examples of really Historically heroic and almost unbelievable Units might be:
Spartan Knights (in addition to Hoplites) - the 300 at Thermopolye, originally the Bodyguards of the King. Same as regular Hoplites, only in blood-red cloaks with bright red 'Lambdas' (upside down 'V' for Lacaedemon - 'Sparta') on their shields.
Guards Brigade (in addition to Redcoats) Originally just 3 regiments out of 100 +, the unit of the British Army that shattered the Garde Imperiale's 'last attack' at Waterloo.
Buffalo Soldiers - the 2 regiments of the US Cavalry that outperformed every other army unit in the 'Indian Wars' of the late 19th century - and one of them charged up the hill right beside the Rough Riders!
Legion Etrangère - French Foreign Legion to the monolingual out there. Cameron, Bir Hacheim, Dien Bien Phu: you could kill them, but you couldn't make them go away.

The point of Heroic Units, I would think though, is that you can't have more than 1 - 2 of them: that means there will have to be some very peculiar rules for how they are formed or obtained both to keep them completely unique and to keep them a tiny minority of the units on the map.
I would also think that to do them right, the Heroic Units need to be graphically different (as in the Spartan Knights example above) so that they are Obvious on the map, both to you and your opponent: The sight of "the red lambdas gleaming' coming at them out of the dust on the battlefield was enough to make several Greek armies run away without fighting!
That might, in fact, be one Overall Characteristic of Heroic Units: fighting them automatically reduces the Combat Strength of any opposing unit . . .

Don't forget the defenders of Roarke's Drift, the Harlem Hellfighters, and the Tuskegee Airmen! : )
 
I would not rely too heavily in "wonder" units. Civ 6 already has that ridiculous Shaolin Monk which serves a combat unit when really they were no more than monks who knew martial arts. Others have already mentioned how sort-lived some of these types of historical flash in the pans were.

I would think: it would have to be units that any civilization in history might have been able to muster but for one reason or another just never did.

a number of civilizations in history had the war elephant, for example. war elephants shouldn't really be a "unique unit". IIRC, THREE civs in Civ 5 had war elephant varieties and I couldn't really tell you the difference between them. I think the Khmer have them in Civ 6 but I don't know who else.

a cataphract was special kind of knight with much more armor for the horse, and used by a few civilizations. For some reason Civ 5 gave them exclusively to the Byzantines.

the grenadier was used in various European militaries, and although they weren't always throwing bombs, they were typically seen as the most senior company in a regiment. But the new United States never had grenadiers, however. This unit was in Civ 4.

the dreadnought was an early battleship mostly made by Britain, France, and Germany, but was soon outclassed by the true battleship in World War 1.

I always liked the idea of a railway gun, though. If only to make building railroads more important.

Civ 5 had a "foreign legion" unit only accessible through the Freedom civic, where you would get 5 or 6 units instantly.
 
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