Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Mercenary Gen., May 17, 2003.
The fast moving units will slauter them. you can't avoid everything.
I think this relies alot on the game difficulty. On games Monarch and below, the Immortal's offence power is just too godly. It overwhelms the computers if you play smart and cautious. But on deity, legionnaires take the cake. That one extra defence is just better.
Legionaries because you simply take too much of a risk by sending units with 2 defence into open enemy territory. If he has an archer or a horseman, theres 1 unit gone right there. In my mosty recent game I sent a large force of med. infantry (same stats as immortal) against the Vikings, and because they had no iron, they simply built up a very large archer army over time, and that destroyed my stack.
Same thing happened to me except it was against Rome and I was using numids.
earendil: The simple solution is to bring along a few Pikemen. But if the AI did that with movement 1 Archers, I suspect the underlaying cause was simply the AI throwing more shields into combat units.
Here is the Combat Calc on this Issue
Legion Attacking Immortal
Legion Wins 68.2% of the time
Immortal Attacking Legion
Immortal Wins 63.3% of the time
So the Legion is 4.9% better than the Immortal
Godwynn- That is not a good way to tell how good a unit is. How good it is depends on how you use it and how effective it is when you use it.
Ive faced the immortals with China on regent level and i never had a problem with them. Maybe the mountains helped, but my normal swordmen took them out. I just sat on my mountain (they were on the other side of the continent, with a slightly larger army) waited for the attack, with a huge stack, then counterattacked. I also picked them off with a couple of horsemen.
So, i vote for the legionnaire. They last longer
I have to pick Legionairre. I dislike having to carry around defensive units during campaigns, and I like the legionnaire's flexibility. The Immortal is best at dislodging Numidian Mercenaries or Hoplites, but the only thing to defend them with are spearmen, with 2 defense. The first real defense you can give to Immortal is with the Pikeman, and by the time you can build Pikeman, you can also build Medieval Infantry, which has the same stats as the Immortal. The Legionnaire remains an effective fighting force from Iron Working to Gunpowder, and can both launch an attack and defend its newly-conquered territory without the requirement of specialized units.
Obviously the Legion is better than the Pikemen, so if you're playing Rome you might want to escort the Medievals with Legionaries, assuming you've got any left (if you've got Feudalism and have had your GA, you can't build 'em). But, with the exceptions of Greece, Carthage, Pikemen are otherwise the sensible way to protect Medievals that have to cross open ground.
Immortal 30 shields 4/2/1 10 less shields and 1 extra defence co0mpared to longbows(Does anyone use these I don't)
I voted for legionary. Being able to defend conquered cities so easily is just brilliant.
The Legion can fight on its own. The Immortal is great for attacking, but a weak defender. So I vote for the Legion - even if I play the Persians right now. Both are really the best units of their Age, besides the Hoplite which is good for defensive players only.
My fav are the Immortals, though this might just be because Persia's my favourite civ in general due to its killer traits (& UU). Immortals just smash through almost any defence, and providing you've got some screening units (ie horsemen) around their lower defence isn't a massive problem.
However there's no doubt Legionaries are damn useful too but my vote's for Immortals
legion. no contest. Stack of catapults with legions will completley dominate. Can hold cities, can counterattack any approaching relief army. Of course this is monarch or above. Lower levels u might as well pick a Medevil UU civ, as tech and unit building is faster.
As you can see immortals have the edge and I'd have to agree. If you've ever found yourself next to Carthage or Greece you'll be glad to have the immortal. Also the immortal lasts for a longer period of time (same stats as the mid. infantry but for a cheaper cost). Legions are an excellant unit and if their civ had better attriutes I would play them more often. If you've ever had to retake a city taken by a stack of legions you know how powerful they can be.
Up to Emperor, at the time you can build either Legion or Immortal, the best defense you will face is 3 (Hoplite, Numid and Legion) any other Civ will have their cities defended by units having 2 in defense Spearman, swordman and Babs longbows.
Who is going to build Swords for defense purpose ?????
O.K. there is a point for having Legion rather than Immortal regarding counterattack, but the 4 attack rated on immortal is so huge that there is almost no comparaison.
Vet Immortal will win in 81.6% against Reg spearman fortified in a city and 70.4% against Vet Spearman fortified in the city.
Vet legionary will win 70.4% against Reg Spearman in a city and 55.7% against Vet Spearman in the city.
Now if we talk about defense 3 units, I won't use any more Legionary without catapults
Vet Immortal will win in 65% against Reg pikeman fortified in a city and 50% against Vet Spearman fortified in the city.
Vet legionary will win 51% against Reg Spearman in a city and 34% against Vet Spearman in the city.
If you want to avoid counterattack, you can use terrain as described by many players in this thread. You can also declare war to your nearest 'ennemy' and wait for him to come, then after having killed most of his attack (a few catapults will greatly help) go after him with IMMORTALS and take the cities without counterattack.
I voted Immortal
I have found that any (inteligent) civ with horses (and horseback riding) can defend against immortales with no problem. If I see I am next to Persia, I simply do not build border cities by hills & mountains. This means I can kill any attack force with little difficulty. When I see I am next to Rome, I get ready to buy them off if the threaten me.
Another advantage of Legions is that you do not have to build spearmen at all during the game. When you then get Fudilism, you can build pikemen and upgrade the legions (as needed) to MidIn for any wars you might have. The benefit of this is that you appear more powerful to the AI and as less likely to get attack. Instead, you can pick your fights.
I also this it should be mentioned that by the standard rules, Rome, Greece, Persia, & Carthage all start next to each other. This will effect which is better because to some degree seeing as a defense of 3 will very likely be something you are fighting against.
And by the way, I picked Legions.
I voted immortal - they have served me well.
Reading all the arguments for legionary, I am convinced it depends on your game play.
Lack of a good defensive unit at the time, immortals are at a disadvantage during counter attacks from the enemy. However they have more punch than legionary.
Now I rate it a toss up.
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