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Legitimate successors of the Roman empire

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rhye's and Fall of Civilization' started by Úmarth, Apr 11, 2008.

?

Who were the legitimate Roman emperors?

  1. Byzantine Emperors

    81.3%
  2. Holy Roman Emperors

    16.4%
  3. Popes

    6.7%
  4. Russian Tzars

    9.0%
  5. Turkish Sultans

    3.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. flyingchicken

    flyingchicken Deity

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    Don't equate the two.

    Romans -> Byazantines, but not Romans = Byzantines.
     
  2. Immortal Ace

    Immortal Ace Prince

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    The Byzantines were the Eastern Roman Empire who survived when the Western Empire collapsed; they're one in the same.

    Then again, we're arguing semantics and will thus get nowhere.

    Arguing between if Byzantines = Roman Empire is arguing semantics. The argument cannot be concluded.
     
  3. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    with someone who writes "Byzantines = Romans, period" there's no argument, no.
     
  4. Immortal Ace

    Immortal Ace Prince

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    There's no arguing with anyone. It's semantics.
     
  5. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    like I said there's no arguing with you because you think so, but as you can read in the previous 2 pages there can be discussion among ppl who are able to confront their ideas as non-absolute truths.
     
  6. "<-_Danny_->"

    "<-_Danny_->" Chieftain

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    The successor of the Romans was The Republic of Venice.
     
  7. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    How is it Venice? Venice is an offshoot of Byzantium. Venice was created from the Exarchate of Ravenna. When Byzantine authority in that area declined, (Early Macedonian I think), the Exachate declared its independance. After the pirate Slavs in the Balkans were killed off, Venice rose to promince because of its excellent Harbor.
     
  8. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    If anyone has the claim of the title Roman Emperor that should be the Byzantine Emperors.

    With the sack of Rome, the secular authority of the WRE died. Charlemagne was recognized as emperor only by the Pope (the religious leader). There was never secular "passing of power" form WRE to HRE.

    Still Charlemagne ha more claim than the Turkish Sultans, Charlemagne was at least Christian. The Sultans tried to retake all of Rome but so did Genghis Khan.

    The first orthodox Tzar (other than the Creeks of course) was Simeon I of Bulgaria. He was recognizes as such by the Byzantine Emperor. Before Simeon I, Tervel (ruler of Bulgaria) was given the title Kesar (aka Caesar) by another of the Byzantine Emperors. Further more, there are no more Russian Tzars, however, there is currently one that holds the title Tzar of Bulgaria.

    So it is: Roman -> Byzantines -> Bulgarians.
     
  9. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    I don't consider anyone to be an heir to an empire if they adopted the religion for political reasons. The Bulgar Tzars adopted orthodoxy to try and BE the legitimate sucessor for Byzantium. After Byzantium, heir passed to the Popes, because Byzantium had technically re-united with Rome, although only the Pope and Emperor followed it basically.
     
  10. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    Really? AFAIK Genghis Khan wouldn't have even heard of Rome.
     
  11. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    Simeon I reigned late 9 early 10 century. The flip to orthodoxy was a political choice, but surely not in order to become the successor of alive and strong Byzantium. (Tervel was Christian by birth and so was his father, but neither of them spread it to the population.)

    During the last years of Byzantium (15 century), the Emperor did look for help from the Pope, but the Pope is a religious not secular leader. As far as I am concerned, Rome died with the fall of Constantinople. Every European empire afterwards had completely different nature.
     
  12. 3Miro

    3Miro Deity

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    Genghis Khan tried to take over Europe, but not because he wanted to rebuild Rome. The Turkish Sultans knew about Rome, but they were building their own empire.
     
  13. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    That's funny how History can't be considered anywhere close to a science. Venice, Bulgaria... who'll be the next legitimate Roman Emperor ? Surprise me.

    IMHO, to be a legitimate Roman Emperor, you have to be at the very least a Roman Citizen. The same as being President in the USA (or anywhere else).
     
  14. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

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    Going by that line of reasoning, the last 2 Byzantine Emperors weren't Roman. They considered themselves greek becasue of their language.
     
  15. "<-_Danny_->"

    "<-_Danny_->" Chieftain

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    If you considered Russia:)lol:) and Turkey:)eek:), why not Venice?!?:confused:
    Venice was more Roman discently of this two. The Venetian language was derivate from latin.
     
  16. "<-_Danny_->"

    "<-_Danny_->" Chieftain

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    :lol::lol::lol:
     
  17. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    I don't think that's true. The first-generation Mongols, Genghis Khan included, would have had a very hazy knowledge of Europe. All second-hand from the Muslim world who's information was also imperfect. There wasn't really a concerted effort to invade and hold Europe, Russia and Hungary offered good pasturage and thus were the kind of lands that the Mongols were interested in. Beyond that were agrarian societies, which were too underdeveloped to be worth holding like China and Persia, and also quite useless as pasturage. The only thing western and Mediterranean Europe offered was plunder and the only reason Europe's cities were saved from being sacked was that Subutai's armies had to return to Mongolia on the death of the khagan Ogedei; and the loss of his conquests in Hungary and the imminent fragmentation of the Empire meant that they wouldn't consider it again save a few raids by the Golden Horde. Had Ogedei not died however, it is certain that the Europeans would not be able to defend against the Mongols. The crushing defeat of the Hungarians demonstrates that European knights and heavy infantry stood very little chance against the light Mongolian cavalry.

    I've heard people say similar things before, but I think it's just a Eurocentric myth. We're perhaps too caught up in classical and Modern European civilizations to realise that during the time of the Mongol Empire Europe was a poor prize. The truth is for Genghis Khan and his successors Europe was simply a good source of easy plunder too augment the conquests of the important Eurasian steppe lands and the sophisticated urban Persians and Chinese.
     
  18. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    [QUOTE="<-_Danny_->";6786580]If you considered Russia:)lol:) and Turkey:)eek:), why not Venice?!?:confused:
    Venice was more Roman discently of this two. The Venetian language was derivate from latin.[/QUOTE]

    So is all of the other Italian languages, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Romanian, Catalan, Romansh. Even English has mostly Latin roots in terms of vocabulary (through French).

    I can't tell if you're actually serious about this. Venice was an independent Republic which as far as I know never claimed any greater link to Roman civilization than being Catholic. Nor did they ever have what could be described as an Empire.
     
  19. onedreamer

    onedreamer Dragon

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    That's why I keep saying that Byzantine Emperors were not Roman Emperors, and not legitimate successors either, although on this I have some reserves. But to be a citizen of a place you want to claim to be emperor seems a quite reasonable line of reasoning in my house.

    [QUOTE="<-_Danny_->";6786580]If you considered Russia:)lol:) and Turkey:)eek:), why not Venice?!?:confused:
    Venice was more Roman discently of this two. The Venetian language was derivate from latin.[/QUOTE]

    I think in his heart Umarth wanted us to choose Byzantium and legitimate the theories that the Byzantine Empire is the same thing as the Roman Empire or its natural continuation ;) He mistakenly forgot to put the only real answer to the question :mischief: ;)
     
  20. Úmarth

    Úmarth Megalomaniac

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    I do and always have seen Byzantium as a continuation of the Roman empire. I started this poll because I saw the debate on another thread and was interested to hear people's views on the subject, not because I was seeking "legitimacy" from a bunch of anonymous people on a forum. And if I were, then I think I'd count 87.8% as an indicator that most people shared my view :)
     

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