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Leoreth Plays Holy Rome

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, Dec 26, 2020.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Yes, that's what I mean.
     
  2. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    It's actually surprising how much Renaissance stuff you are doing in Europe as Holy Rome, that is one area where I rarely play, and for most civs in Europe this is the part where you chill out on the continent, and build and tech up, at least that's how I play usually. The UHVs of much other Europeans direct you overseas during this part of the game.

    One thing I noticed in that context is that the Pistolier is really strong, I am wondering if that's a good thing? It has no real counter (earlier light cavalry can be countered by archery units but they don't have an equivalent on this tech level), and quite a good base strength to attack even without open terrain. Thoughts? Could they maybe lose one strength, or be moved back to Combined Arms?

    Other things I have positive experiences with here is actually the Elective civic, it was very helpful in the early game when I was lacking workers and had so many tiles to improve. Stability as Holy Rome also feels just right, you can easily control the largest extent of the historical Holy Roman Empire but expanding out of that gets you in trouble real quick. Unlike the comment above I found Jerusalem quite useful to keep long term because of its shrine income, but eventually I had to give it up, just like conquered Copenhagen, to not collapse while expanding into civilisations I wanted to vassalise.

    I also branched my game off again from an earlier save, and in this timeline I managed to vassalise Poland and convert Peru, only to realise that I forgot my own goals. I required three Catholic vassals in Europe, so the whole strategy of going for the New World was useless for the UHV. I am wondering if the goal is actually fair. I think it's doable but pretty annoying at this point, simply because of lack of options. I think when I devised it I thought of Italy and Netherlands as possible options as well, but Italy is usually not around unless you let it appear deliberately, and there is not enough time really to capitulate the Netherlands.

    I did manage to get England to convert to Catholicism and be friendly once again, as well as be at peace, but they still refused to peace vassalise. I am currently trying to figure out why, because at some point "we are doing fine on our own" became "we just don't like you enough" once again, which made little sense at friendly. Maybe having Inca as a vassal actually hampered my ability to get them to agree?

    I will keep trying some other routes, but at this point it seems the goal requires you to vassalise all of continental Europe, which feels excessive. I am not ready to mod obstacles out of my way yet and will keep at it, but how about "have two European vassals and three Catholic vassals"? This would allow branching outside of Europe somewhat but not substitute Mexico and Peru for harder targets in Europe.
     
  3. rmontaruli

    rmontaruli Prince

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    Good observation. Thinking of how light cavalry was used in Renaissance (not strong but quick) maybe Pistoliers could have -1 attack and more percentage of escaping.

    I made the same mistake in a game, before learning the correct UHV target.
    Definitely HRE does not need to expand in New World.

    This goal is historically accurate. In the game we have Poland, France, Italy, Spain that can be vassalized.
    Of course Italy needs an indipendent Venice to born.

    I do not like it. HRE has to stay in Europe.
    It is possible to have those two european vassals, allowing Italy to born.

    An alternative could be a percentage of land in Europe, but France has a similar UHV already.
     
  4. borhap88

    borhap88 Prince

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    It'd be more historically accurated having Medieval/Renaissance Italy in a less conditional way, in order to create more often the dynamic vassallage system between HRE and a city-states civ in the Paeninsula, than make HRE to go overseas searching for some Catholics.
     
  5. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    True. Should the conditional spawn of Italy just be lifted? When I initially introduced them, I did not want their presence to be too punishing to whoever controls Italy. The race to control Rome is usually an interesting component of the French, German and sometimes Spanish early game and I did not want to undermine that. But Rome is not part of the Italian flip zone anyway.
     
  6. borhap88

    borhap88 Prince

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    In my opinion, yes it should: it'd only enrich gameplay for other civs as well.
     
  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I pretty much suicide attacked Spain just on time to force them into vassalisation at 1650 AD. So I guess this goal works? Took me a lot of retries though.
     
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  8. ShinobiHus92

    ShinobiHus92 Chieftain

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    I actually really like that you genuine spend time playing your own mod, looking for new ways to improve it, trying to interact with the community with it. It really shows to me how much you care for this project, and I actually like this daily blog post time to time. Really looking forward for more future civs adventures of yours
     
  9. Fresol

    Fresol Angry Halfling in Green

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    The 3 Catholic vassals goal is the easiest among the three historical goals. The 1st goal really requires a lot of luck (or S/L) as the starting army is not enough to take Rome. And the 3rd goal is just impossible: 3 (vassals) + 8 (independent) + 1(self) = 12 European civilizations alive on the map! The prerequisite is absurd and a player is in no way to ensure its occurrence.

    Between taking Rome(1000 AD) and Jerusalem(1200AD) you have a good timing window to capitulate France and Spain. I usually do the trick of founding Freiburg on the stone. With monastery it quickly steals the iron from France and makes the war against them one-sided. Then quickly attack Spain before they get conqueror events againt Moors. I play Monarch/Epic but with Normal speed it could be a bit more difficult.

    The third vassal can be Portugal, Poland, England or Vikings, and none of them can match you in military power at that point. Holy Rome totally dominates Europe in this game.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2021
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  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Yeah, I guess earlier wars against France and Spain are feasible in this game, I was dedicating more units to Jerusalem than really necessary. But England and Vikings really seem like inopportune targets to me. I don't see time to build sufficient ships or go the long way around Finland. Consider that I am playing on and balancing for normal speed.

    Yeah, I also consider this approach a success already and will definitely continue it with other civs.
     
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  11. HighFunctioningAlcoholic

    HighFunctioningAlcoholic Warlord

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    I thought you died.
     
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    As everyone predicted, and not that I disagreed, the relationship goal is a burden. I guess I calibrated this to all the possible European civilisations that can exist off a 3000 BC game, which theoretically involves Greece, Rome, Byzantium, none of these usually make it to that stage of the game. Even if we assume Italy is around as per the above, it's a tough sell. Some points:
    • I already allowed canceling vassals as a master. Actually I assumed this was already the case but it is not. The requirements for the vassal to become independent still must be met, but now you do not need to wait/hope that the vassal cancels on their own.
    • Moors was considered European for that goal (and many other things that apply to Europeans), and while that technically makes the goal a little easier, it is also just wrong. I will move them to be considered a Middle Eastern civ instead, which is a little weird geographically but certainly works culturally.
    • Am I underrating Protestant zealousness or is William III too obsessed with religion? He gives -6 for being Catholic in the Renaissance.
    • Now for the actual goal, I am considering a change to "Make sure that all but two European civilisations are independent and have at least Pleasant relations with you" which is a bit more responsive to which civs spawned, collapsed, and got carried over from an earlier start date. Unfortunately it also encourages simply eliminating everyone who hates you, which is not exactly in the spirit of the goal.
    • A reduction to 7 required civs, combined with the above, should still be reasonable.
     
  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    I got as far as 1830. It's really cool how your perspective immediately shifts after Prussia spawns and you can let go your vassals (which I did asap, I don't know if that's a good idea). Because suddenly you are a small player again, your research is down to about 50%, and you cannot attack any of your neighbours because it is in your interest to keep them alive and their good relations. This interestingly frees your attention and expansion limit to attack the Ottomans again, which I did immediately to get out of my economic problems. That felt very historical.

    For the relations part of the goal, the best I ever reached was 7/8. My preferred strategy was to use espionage to switch their state religion, assisted by missionaries to hopefully keep them that way. That made me realise that switching civics is way too cheap, and also not at all sensitive to how widespread the religion is in their empire, so that will be addressed. But espionage is still a useful tool to Holy Rome, because you are already incentivised to run many Statesmen, and one of my mistakes was not utilising it sooner. The greatest obstacles are still with civs you share borders with, it was very tough to get Russia and Germany to like me at all, even with shared state religion, and I only managed to do so very briefly with Russia.

    Later in the game I was able to release and resurrect Greece, which would have put me over the edge. Unfortunately, by then Vikings and Poland had collapsed, setting me back again (this is part of my reason for asking about stability in the other thread). One thing I will do to make this goal more forgiving is to decouple both "by" conditions, i.e. you can get the relations part checked as soon as the condition is met, even while you are still lacking the specialists. This should make you less susceptible to collapses ruining the attempt. But overall, I think with the added ability to release vassals this goal is actually doable as it is, if still hard and somewhat luck dependent. I didn't pay too much attention to the intricacies of diplomacy, such as adopting favourite civics and avoiding trade with someone's worst enemies, and I haven't used Great Statesmen anywhere to get someone across the line to Pleased.

    The specialist goal was giving me a lot more trouble actually. As of writing this, I am at 6/10 (all artists) in Vienna, with one unsettled Great Statesman parked in the city. I generally tried to maximise my chances of getting statesmen and artists, favouring the former over the latter. The idea was to hold back on using Great Statesmen in case I could get sufficient specialists but not relations, and use them for the opinion boost instead. I was quite unlucky with some spawns, and made the mistake of not micromanaging Venice correctly, which ran the wrong specialists from AI assignment for a long time. Those are the other GP I received besides those already mentioned, if I remember correctly:
    • 1 Great Artist: used to build a Museum in Rome after I had Heritage
    • 2 Great Prophets: one needed to build the Protestant Shrine, the other received against my wishes, parked for GA
    • 1 Great Scientist: received against my wishes, parked for GA
    • 2 Great Engineers: first received against my wishes when I was aiming for the Prophet, used to build Santa Maria del Fiore in Rome, second also received against my wishes and used to build a Mill in Frankfurt
    I primarily used Rome as my GP farm, but also heavily ran specialists in Vienna to support it, although looking back not many GPs were actually born there. Rome was mostly running five specialists throughout the entire game, except when I really needed military to support my warfare (Frankfurt was my main production city, but Rome was the second best). I am not sure if that was the right thing to do, maybe I should have built more infrastructure early on and then go full into specialists once the modifiers were stacked up. But maybe I also wasted too much of its time on building units.

    Tech wise, I focused heavily on the bottom of the tech tree, which also adds a cool culture/governance feel to the civ that felt quite thematically appropriate. My basic game plan was to go in the direction of Representation for the free Great Statesman, but there are also other neat bonuses you pick up along the line. Rathauses are useful and help with GP farming, and I ended up building Versailles as well. I also should have rated Heritage higher and pursued it more actively, and keep a Great Artist saved to build the Museum asap instead of doing so opportunistically when the next GA was born. I also built the National Monument later on, which took quite some time, but I think that's good considering how expensive it is. I also got access to the Louvre before anyone else, but never had the spare production to build it until Germany finally got it. Representation also enabled Democracy which is obviously very helpful too, but I forgot to consider that it also obsoletes Santa Maria del Fiore, so unfortunately it was a wash for Rome, where it actually mattered. Not sure if I should have delayed it for some more. Otherwise, I made sure to get Blackpowder quickly so I had Bombards, but otherwise made do with city attack promoted Heavy Swordsmen while everyone else was going Arquebusiers. Obviously, before any of this I rushed Academia.

    I think overall my tech path was sound, but I could have used some coincidental advantages more deliberately. Using Rome as a GP farm is the right thing to do, but I think I started going all in too early, and should have put its production into buildings more actively after securing the GP for the shrine. Meanwhile, Vienna should have been more commerce oriented, or maybe take the military role that I had given Rome considering it also has quite a few hills. Also, the Mill in Frankfurt was probably a waste and would have been long term more useful in Rome, but I shouldn't have had that Engineer in the first place.

    At this point, I think I have learned enough about Holy Rome to consider this run a success, even though I did not complete the UHV. I think it's possible if I go back and correct some of those mistakes and used the room for improvement I described above, but it would still require some luck, or would require me to go back quite far, and I don't think I want to do all the tedious warfare again. So for the time being, I will call this game complete, unless motivation strikes me to pick it up again for another attempt.

    In general, that this raises so many thoughts and considerations for me what the best strategy could be and how to balance the goals over the course of the game shows that the UHV is in a very good place design wise, even though playing has also uncovered many avenues for improvement. I think next I will spend some time again on the secret victory refactoring branch (progress going good there right now by the way), then come back and actually implement all the actionables from this game. I already did so in some cases, and kept note others for later, and I will also make sure to revisit this thread again to make sure I haven't missed anything. I will update the ongoing poll when I am close to starting the next game, so people can lock in their final votes.
     
  14. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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  15. rmontaruli

    rmontaruli Prince

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    So this was the Imperial Anthem of HRE.
    Why did it become the anthem of Germany?
     
  16. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    The lyrics for the national anthem were written in the 1840 and the revolutionary period of that decade, which was associated with a desire to unify Germany in German speaking states (which failed, obviously). At the time, no formal distinction between Austria and the rest of Germany existed, and there were competing ideas whether it should be included in a unified German state or not (the reason against being mostly competition between Habsburgs and Hohenzollerns and also that Austria would bring its non-German territories with it). The anthem used by the Habsburgs was adapted to reference this potential inclusion of Austria in the pan-German national project.

    By the way, the melody of the anthem used by the Hohenzollerns is identical to the current British national anthem, so either way it would have been weird.
     
  17. Imp. Knoedel

    Imp. Knoedel Simperator Knoedel

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    People say we've been living in a bad alternate timeline since 2016, but in reality the point of divergence was when the German nation was unified by the brutish and unsophisticated Prussians rather than the glorious Austrian Empire.
     
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  18. Leoreth

    Leoreth Prince of Blood Moderator

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    Would have been balkanised again anyway after the Habsburgs lost the next war they got themselves into.
     
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  19. brett0007

    brett0007 Warlord

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  20. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    I think for me Holy Rome is a civ where the 3000BC start doesn't really work because the Catholic holy city could be different to Rome
     

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