Leoreth Plays the Celts

[Leoreth]

Last month we voted for me to play the Celts, so let's give it a go.

As always, I am playing and balancing for Regent/Normal.

I found Nemessos on the spot.

The other cities I found are "Sens" and "Laval". I prefer the Laval spot over the Bordeaux spot because together with Nemessos it can work almost all of its resources except for the clams, and it does not get flipped by the eventual France spawn.

As we can see Rome has spawned and flipped Mediolanum and founded Tarragona. There's a legion in Tarragona which is a problem.

The initial four Oathsworn conquer Mediolanum (losing one) and after healing and uniting with two additionally built units attack Tarragona as well, taking it with two losses. Having a double city attack unit was very helpful. This completes the first UHV goal.

Rome accepts peace, so we don't have to worry about their legions for a while. I gift Mediolanum back to them because I have no workers to develop it. Its maintenance is only a drain and it is pretty difficult to defend once Rome inevitably attacks again. My Oathsworn retreat to the forested hill at the border, which is the best defensive position against Legions, especially with a few Woodsman promotions in the stack.

Nemessos is the most important city in my civilization, I improved all of its resources and researched Arithmetics asap to for Redistribution. It has the most production potential and built one worker, a menhir, granary and barracks, and two oathsworn by the point of the war with Rome. Building level two Oathsworn is crucial against Legions to get the Shock promotion.

It's good for commerce as well from the wine in its radius as well. My research order continues Calendar -> Writing -> Priesthood because eventually we are going to need monasteries. Calendar also unlocks Manorialism, which used to be great for the Celts before the civics changes, but now it no longer boosts commerce from all the orchards it has around. I still went that route to see what it does - the worker speed modifier is nice but not that impactful at a low number of workers.

Laval exists mostly to build a Galley to go to the British isles. Sens exists to build workers and settlers. As you can see I have founded Loch Garman at this point, so only a city on Britain to go.

Unfortunately I underestimated this goal a bit. The settler makes it to the London spot one turn too late, so that ends this run as the Celts.

I have to say the Celts play a lot easier than they did when I originally played and balanced them. Back at that point, city maintenance was still off the charts (I know people still believe it is too high but it was even higher then) and it was a struggle to reach Priesthood in time even after Orthodoxy had been founded and spread to me. I think I only managed shortly before the French spawn. Not saying we should go back to that, because it was literally a question of staying at positive income without any research due to all the cities the UHV asks you to control, but it feels a bit too easy right now. You just get the techs you need without really having to think about research and commerce. So there are probably some adjustments needed.

On the civics side, I deliberately avoided Despotism and Slavery to see how it plays. I did not manage, but I think I could have. Again, back then Despotism was a must have to get the infrastructure in place and pay for the units while still making the goals on time.

I have to replay them anyway to win the UHV, so I will use those civics then, but I expect them to make the game even easier. So yeah, the current conclusion is that the Celts need a few changes to make their game more difficult.

 

[AOS9001]

I see the AI founding Laval a lot, now I see you founding it. Maybe NW France needs some resource re-shuffling to make more historically relevant cities appealing? Nantes, Brest, Cherbourg, those are names I know from French history. Laval? Never heard of it before seeing it in the DOC namelist.

 

[Dracosolon]

Some questions on the civ's design:

- Is there a particular reason for Nemessos over Lugdunum? Just because it's a better city spot with its additional resources? It conflicts with France's Lyon and Lugdunum was itself a fairly important city from what I've read.

- What was the reasoning for changing the UB from Metalworker to Menhir (or not going with BtS's Dun)? My assumption here is that it was because the Celts have a short UHV and poor initial
so a Monument UB would be cheaper.

- Among the new civs, the Celts are I think the only ones to already be in BtS, complete with leaders. Was there a particular reason you didn't pick Boudica along with Brennus? Was it because of her leaderhead's design? I think I remember you mentioning you weren't a fan of Civ IV's tendency to prettify its female leaders.

Outside of that I can already see some differences in how we played them. I razed Mediolanum before Rome's spawn (which is easier, though it might possibly give Rome another Settler if Mediolanum isn't there? I haven't checked), and used my first Settlers to get Iberia and Panonnia and 2/3 of the settling UHV out of the way. Rome is so dangerous that I invested most of my production into military to snuff them out. Though once the first two UHV are accomplished you can either stand your ground in Gaul for better , or let Rome have it and retreat to the British Isles, to avoid dealing with the Barbarians and get better odds of Orthodoxy spreading in Western Europe.

I see the AI founding Laval a lot, now I see you founding it. Maybe NW France needs some resource re-shuffling to make more historically relevant cities appealing? Nantes, Brest, Cherbourg, those are names I know from French history. Laval? Never heard of it before seeing it in the DOC namelist.

Nantes and Laval seem roughly similar to me terrain-wise, and Nantes has a river. Really, for me the alternative to Nantes is Brest, which has less overlap with other cities (and can work a land tile in Cornwall), is less vulnerable to early Barbarian raids (except Vikings), and since Nantes will occasionally have a Forest spawns on its tile.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I have seen people go for the eradicate Rome route, but I think that is less fun to do.

 

[triplebassist]

I see the AI founding Laval a lot, now I see you founding it. Maybe NW France needs some resource re-shuffling to make more historically relevant cities appealing? Nantes, Brest, Cherbourg, those are names I know from French history. Laval? Never heard of it before seeing it in the DOC namelist.

I'd heard of Laval...but the one in Canada. I didn't know it was named after a place in France, and I definitely wouldn't have known where in France the original city was.

 

[Tigranes]

I am particularly interested in UHV3, because in my experience Christianity spreads around like a wildfire, much faster than you have a chance to spread it yourself. Unless you target Mali or Persia with your missionary zeal.

 

[Dracosolon]

The cheesy way is to spam Settlers alongside Missionaries.

 

[HNation]

Interesting that you settled more cities in Gaul. I settle Nemessos (immediately build settler), Bilbao (immediately build galley), and then save my third settler in Bilbao for when the galley is built, and then I settle Dublin and Edinburgh. Like you, I conquer Mediolanum (although I do it immediately when it spawns), and then I send my Oathsworns east, looking for an indie city that is poorly defened. It usually winds up being the one in Armenia.

Then, I split my Oathsworns up and use them to explore Eurasia, just because it's fun to do so.

 

[TsimTsigal]

Quite surprised that you have chosen more or less pacifist route over Chaos Rising gameplay, but to each their own.

The first two UHV conditions are very easy, there can be no second opinion on this (especially if you settle Bilbao on start). The devil (heh) in the Christianity spreading one. You have no realistic chances to found it, and given that you gone with not strangling Rome in its cradle, it's quite possible that you will be reduced to 3-4 cities far away from most civilizations. Given that Christianity spreads on its own rather fast in Europe, there is a real chance you can fail UHV3 without endless conquest strategy, especially if you get the same confession on the Schism as the rest of Europe.

 

[CivEnthusiast]

I see the AI founding Laval a lot, now I see you founding it. Maybe NW France needs some resource re-shuffling to make more historically relevant cities appealing? Nantes, Brest, Cherbourg, those are names I know from French history. Laval? Never heard of it before seeing it in the DOC namelist.

Or also add Rennes city name to that list too

 

[Lokki242]

Yeah, I have seen people go for the eradicate Rome route, but I think that is less fun to do.

I'm just happy that if you go this route and then release them it's no longer an insta-collapse

 

[Leoreth]

Some questions on the civ's design:

- Is there a particular reason for Nemessos over Lugdunum? Just because it's a better city spot with its additional resources? It conflicts with France's Lyon and Lugdunum was itself a fairly important city from what I've read.

Realised that I never replied to these questions, sorry.

Nemessos was the largest city of the Arverni (Vercingetorix's people) and I wanted a capital location that was actually associated with an important Celtic polity, not just any Gaulish settlement. The fact that its history continues into a fairly significant modern city was nice too. To be honest, I did not know about Nemessos before researching the Celts for this, but it seems to be a good fit. Gergovia comes up more often in context with the Arverni but it was just a fortified town, not their actual center. It's just much more prominent in our sources because Caesar fought a battle there.

Lugdunum is actually not that important in the Gaulish period, from what I could tell. It was a cult site of Lugos, but not a major settlement. It was really only with Roman settlement in the area that the location became important. I did not want to choose a location that merely sets up Roman conquest.

- What was the reasoning for changing the UB from Metalworker to Menhir (or not going with BtS's Dun)? My assumption here is that it was because the Celts have a short UHV and poor initial
so a Monument UB would be cheaper.

I never considered the Dun because the Celtic civ was meant to be more Gaul focused than the amalgam civ that it is in BtS. I had two issues with the Metalworker during my playtests: it came too late and required to much research to really matter, even with an earlier tech requirement, so that it was never worth to invest the research and production. The second is that its earlier tech requirement (and the cheaper costs needed to make it worthwhile) made it almost a carbon copy of the Hittite UB. And in my opinion the Hittites should be the ones who get an early Forge UB - if another civ gets the same benefit it dilutes their historical theming.

I don't think the menhir is the greatest UB because it is also somewhat geographically off, and historically anachronistic, but at least it has a clear association in everyone's mind.

- Among the new civs, the Celts are I think the only ones to already be in BtS, complete with leaders. Was there a particular reason you didn't pick Boudica along with Brennus? Was it because of her leaderhead's design? I think I remember you mentioning you weren't a fan of Civ IV's tendency to prettify its female leaders.

No. There wasn't any particular decision not to use her. The leader lists for all civilizations are not finished yet because for all intents and purposes it is an aesthetic element.

Boudica especially does not fit that much with the civ because she is a Briton leader. I originally did not intend to use her for the civ because I think she should require a capital in Britain or something like that, which is a rare enough edge case not to warrant adding another leader for. But then, she is already in the game, so it's not like I am adding any extra graphics. Might as well make her a conditional leader too.

I think a more important leader to add though is someone like Brian Boru to represent medieval Ireland.

 

[Lokki242]

There's a decent Collins LH floating around somewhere too for modern Ireland (if not already being used!), I'm pretty sure it was in the expanded modmodmod from a few years back.

 

[Bu77Trout]

Realised that I never replied to these questions, sorry.

Nemessos was the largest city of the Arverni (Vercingetorix's people) and I wanted a capital location that was actually associated with an important Celtic polity, not just any Gaulish settlement. The fact that its history continues into a fairly significant modern city was nice too. To be honest, I did not know about Nemessos before researching the Celts for this, but it seems to be a good fit. Gergovia comes up more often in context with the Arverni but it was just a fortified town, not their actual center. It's just much more prominent in our sources because Caesar fought a battle there.

Lugdunum is actually not that important in the Gaulish period, from what I could tell. It was a cult site of Lugos, but not a major settlement. It was really only with Roman settlement in the area that the location became important. I did not want to choose a location that merely sets up Roman conquest.

I never considered the Dun because the Celtic civ was meant to be more Gaul focused than the amalgam civ that it is in BtS. I had two issues with the Metalworker during my playtests: it came too late and required to much research to really matter, even with an earlier tech requirement, so that it was never worth to invest the research and production. The second is that its earlier tech requirement (and the cheaper costs needed to make it worthwhile) made it almost a carbon copy of the Hittite UB. And in my opinion the Hittites should be the ones who get an early Forge UB - if another civ gets the same benefit it dilutes their historical theming.

I don't think the menhir is the greatest UB because it is also somewhat geographically off, and historically anachronistic, but at least it has a clear association in everyone's mind.

No. There wasn't any particular decision not to use her. The leader lists for all civilizations are not finished yet because for all intents and purposes it is an aesthetic element.

Boudica especially does not fit that much with the civ because she is a Briton leader. I originally did not intend to use her for the civ because I think she should require a capital in Britain or something like that, which is a rare enough edge case not to warrant adding another leader for. But then, she is already in the game, so it's not like I am adding any extra graphics. Might as well make her a conditional leader too.

I think a more important leader to add though is someone like Brian Boru to represent medieval Ireland.

Brian Boru for sure.

 

[Leoreth]

I know I am behind schedule, but I haven't forgotten about this. So here's another run.

A very early Roman army spawn this time, but fortunately my Oathsworn defenders won all their battles.

I use the opportunity to capture Mediolanum.

This is what my city setup looks like. You might notice that there are no olives and wine in Gaul anymore. That is a recent (unpushed) change I am trying out. These resources only appear when a Mediterranean civilization acquires a city in the region, as historically these resources were brought by Greek/Roman settlers and were not originally from the area. It also serves to adding some challenge to the Celtic game.

For the UHV, I build a Settler in Nemessos and sneak it into Iberia to found Valladolid. The Romans leave it alone. I was talking about civics in an earlier post. At game start, I did switch to Despotism but did not get to use it more because I valued the population more. Now that all those resources are gone there is a much lower growth rate and there is not that much population to spend. Slavery also has very little use without the Orchard resources. I switched to Manorialism because Farms are more valuable now, so Farm commerce and improvement construction speed are actually more valuable.

Nevertheless I mess up the UHV (this is the last turn before the deadline). Settlement of Britain is two turns away and I have nowhere enough Oathsworn to capture Tarragona. The resource nerfs might have made this game too difficult now, I will have to see with a few more tries.

Also note that the UHV now includes the requirement to control three cities in Gaul - so no cheap completion of the second goal with the starting settlers anymore.

Here is me losing after suiciding all remaining Oathsworn in range against the Legion in Tarragona. I'll try again soon!

 

[SOVNARKOM]

I think it would be better to set these resources to spawn after the birth of Rome (or at some point before). Player can easily avoid it by gifting city to a Mediterranean civilization

 

[Leoreth]

That would make no difference to the Celtic game.

 

[Leoreth]

Back at it again.

Once again Rome gets an early conqueror spawn. Is that a guaranteed thing? What has everyone's game experience been like? In my initial test games it took a while before they targeted me and I actually started the initial war to capture Mediolanum.

I also get lucky and can trade Calendar from Egypt. The civic choice this time is Monarchy and Manorialism. I am pretty sure that is optimal now because there simply is not enough food to use Despotism, and at least Monarchy helps with the settlers you are required to build.

Early battles go well. I do not lose any units against the legions and then manage to capture Mediolanum. The Celtic UP is quite useful here because you can recover from the damage quickly. I get the city before their defensive reinforcements arrive. The archers continue moving towards Spain (Rome has founded Tarragona) and I force them to move into open territory and destroy them.

When the units are healed up I prepare to attack Tarragona as well to finish the conquest goal as quickly as possible.

I play a bit more aggressively in my city build orders. Nemessos just builds a menhir and then starts building Oathsworn. Sens immediately builds a worker and then a settler. Nantes builds a menhir and then a galley. I eventually build the second settler in Sens after growing it to size 2 and the third one in Nemessos.

The same is true for improvements. I chop two forest for all of my cities while only improving the resource tiles. None of these cities grow enough to make improving other tiles worthwhile until after the first two goals are done. Better to generate more production to get settlers and units in time.

At this point I get both Rome and Mediolanum off my back. Tarragona is quite good and not that much under threat, so worth keeping. I have to say the maintenance situation for the Celts still feels a bit too generous.

I have a boat ready for Ireland at 300 BC. The other settler should be done by this point soon after. As you can see, I am already well on my way to Writing.

Rome is busy with other things.

London is being founded in 230 BC. That leaves only another city in Spain, easy to complete.

 

[Leoreth]

Valladolid is founded in 180 BC to complete the settle goal. I think this one is actually challenging enough. I wonder about the conquest goal though. It feels a little wrong that you can just snag two cities from Rome early on and then sit defensively. On the other hand, I don't want to force you to conquer them totally and capturing a Greek city is probably out of the question.

Being nice to Julius was pointless, because Augustus is in charge the next time they decide to attack. Those stacks are definitely too strong to ever be able to handle with what you can produce until this point. I wonder if they are overtuned. Something like 3 legions, 2 ballistas would still be a big problem and should be enough to take care of the AI as well.

I also discover Priesthood in the same turn (70 BC), which like I said before feels a bit too easy and early. I got lucky in this game by being able to trade Calendar, but that also only saved a few turns.

I don't have a chance at all, Rome easily kicks my ass out of Gaul, which triggers my partial collapse and moved my core to Ireland. My Spanish cities also flip to Rome in the process. It's a bit unfun to lose without having a chance to fight back, but in the end you do not need continental cities to win the game.

I eventually settle Scotland as well in 60 AD. At this point I do not have Christianity yet and am starting to get a bit worried, but there isn't really anything you can do about it.

In fact when Orthodoxy spreads to me, it triggers to schism too. Loch Garman becomes the Catholic holy city. This isn't really any advantage though, because there is not enough time to create a prophet for it.

At this point I sort of forget to take screenshots. The game plan is fairly simple: build monasteries and missionaries, drop them on the continent, and try to find cities without Catholicism to spread to. Rome refuses to make peace until they collapse, which makes this difficult for a while. France starts with a lot of Catholicism and also refuses to open borders until you gift them a bunch of gold.

Still, they are necessary to get a connection to the rest of Europe. The last time I played this the rule that allowed ships and civilian units to enter independent territory wasn't in place yet. With it, this is a lot more fun to play, because you can actually spread to the independent cities from the Roman spawn. The fact that some of them are barbarian still makes it engaging. I send a ship with two missionaries to the Mediterranean sea but they both fail trying to convert a North African city. Missionaries eventually have to take the long overland trip into (Orthodox) Byzantium and spread to its cities, which also has a fairly high failure probability. It's also worth keeping some missionaries in France because they eventually found some additional cities and you can swoop in to spread into them before the natural spread.

I also tried to spread to the Norse but only managed to reach Copenhagen before they declared war on me. Maybe if I had the ships already ready for their spawn it might have been more.

 

[Leoreth]

Bordeaux is one of those cities I can sneak a missionary in for. It turns out to be the 12th city to spread to but I also had three more missionaries streaming into Athens to finally beat the spread probability.

And that finally completes the Celtic UHV!

Some end game stats and the Shaka Zulu rank I get for my troubles.

I think two things are worth talking about here: first, both Rome and Greece get quite an insane power spike. At some point, I noticed their conquerors were failing to succeed, so I strengthened the amount they receive. I definitely think this is too much, and should try if it's possible to reduce them without hampering the conquests.

Second, China is doing a bit too poorly on the research front now. I heavily nerfed their modifiers after it became clear they pull away in the mid game, but it's probably a bit too much.