Leoreth Plays the Inca

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall - Dawn of Civilization' started by Leoreth, May 12, 2021.

  1. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    So, I think the Inca are fun. The first goal has tight circumstances and deadlines which leaves little room for error, which I like.

    It took me a few tries to get everything lined up for it. I usually went Chan-Chan, Tucume, Tiwanaku, then settle Quitu and Caqonatambu. There's probably room for optimisation in splitting early and taking Tiwanaku first or simultaneously with Chan-Chan.

    The problem lies in the second goal. Here's my situation in 1550 AD:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0274.JPG

    As you can tell, about 1000 gold short of the goal. The thing is, I am not sure if there is that much room for improvement. So, first of all, I was already lucky the (Arab) conquerors arrived after the first goal was already secured. They landed in Ecuador, took Quitu, and I eventually beat them back while defending Tucume. I think that part was quite fun, I wish I had a few extra turns to prepare but I managed to get up Walls everywhere and could switch into Despotism and whip out enough defenders in time. I even used Thupaq Amaru as a great leader who heroically died in battle, which I thought was quite thematically fitting.

    But even so, the invasion tanks your economy, mostly through the plague and required whipping. More importantly though, I don't think I was on track to get it before that either.

    The problem is, your choices to do things differently are limited. I teched Alloys -> Bloomery -> Cement -> Engineering, which is a hard requirement to get Tambos for the first goal. In my first game, I tried going for Law first to build Machu Picchu asap, but that came too late. In fact, I don't think Law is worth it, and you have to turn down your science slider right after Engineering regardless, if you want to make the gold goal in time. Currency is interesting as well, because Markets, Merchant Trade and building Wealth would all be very helpful, but I don't think you have time/commerce to spare on it either.

    I don't think this situation is desirable. Machu Picchu should be useful for your goal, and Currency also should be a viable path, even if you cannot get both. It's also not fun that all ways to effectively influence your gold output are tied to Currency: building wealth, markets, running merchants. Without them, there's not much you can do besides optimising your commerce, with little viable tiles for cottages available as well.

    What to do about it? The easiest solution I could think of is letting the Inca start with Currency. I don't think that would be ahistorical, and you still have a lot of catching up to do in the metalworking part of the tech tree so that it isn't overpowered. Law may even be in the cards as well. Since your production still needs to go largely into expansion and defense, it wouldn't be overly powerful.

    Alternatively, the Tambo requirement could be changed to Law, making it easy to pick up and freeing a lot of otherwise useless research (Alloys for chopping is nice though). I will try each of these changes soon.

    Thoughts? Am I wrong to think the second goal is too hard? I may not have microed extensively but I cannot see a way to make up 1000 gold. 500 maybe, but not that much.

    Thinking a bit more into the future, any thoughts about the third goal? I remember people not liking it, and I can see why. It's probably mostly whack a mole against superior units. I am thinking about changing the goal somewhat while still maintaining the theme. For example, how about controlling 80% (or whatever) population in South America? That would allow some colonies and leave you the option to meet the requirement either through growth or warfare.

    Also, is it worth settling outside of the Andes when the continent opens up? If so, where?
     
  2. Grassland Farm

    Grassland Farm Warlord

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    Honestly I'm unfond, in general, of goals that involve turning your slider to 0% research after discovering "that tech". But then again "have X yield in year XXXX" is the most elegant way to make a hard check for economy.

    How about moving Macchu Picchu?
    Still, if I had to pick, I'd say give them Law or any kind of slight tech lead to allow them to reach Macchu and/or Markets more easily. Or maybe +1 commerce on mountains?
     
  3. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Not opposed to moving Machu Picchu but do you mean to a tech they already start with? Because if not, the same problem presents itself regardless of which tech it is at.
     
  4. Xfactor

    Xfactor Warlord

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    Tried myself a quick Inca playthrough on Heir, Epic speed - this is the best i got.

    Tech path is the same was the same as yours - Alloys-Iron Working-Law-Cement-Engeneering - 0% slider.

    Managed to squeeze in Law though to try out Maccu Picchu , and i build it in Tiwaniku since it has a bit more hills than Quzcu and better production.

    After i got Engeneering (around 1400~) i turned slider off and just started getting gold. I managed to get a scout from the goodie hut in central south america and started exploring for the rest of the continent in order to pop the other goodie huts for hold. 1 got me Riding , other got me some gold. Macchu Picchu was build in Tiwanku in 25~ turns and the boost is quite good on Epic speed - around 40-50g per turn , but still this is the best i got to - 1k gold short off the goal which is 3750 on Epic speed.

    A cheeky strategy i did while on 0% in order to get currency was to whip out Libraries , some earlier , others after the Tambo goal , and just run Scientists on 0% - it slowly moved my research for Currency and i managed to get it around 1520~ , but still its rather late.

    Might try it again with some things different, but indeed there isnt much room for improvement.

    Either thing you guys suggested works - Law in starting techs, +1 commerce on Mountains, but 1k is still quite a large difference. Basically i accumulated 2/3rds of the gold i need on Epic with half the turns since spawn running on 0%.


    inca.png
     
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  5. Kott

    Kott Chieftain

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    If I remember correctly, running Republic with a market in a city allows hiring a merchant.
    So whip two markets and run merchants asap. I was able to generate two GMs and send them both to Aztecs before they died.
    As for the cities in a newly opened area - Buenos Aires is a good spot and it prevents others from founding it.
     
  6. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    So close and yet too far:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0275.JPG

    This is with Tambos at Law. I made the mistake of choosing to defend Caqonatambu when it isn't really of any value, and instead should have withdrawn to Tiwanaku. Also I missed some spawns in the north and left Quitu too lightly defended.
     
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  7. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Yeah, after reloading and throwing more cities into building wealth and withdrawing my army into Tiwanaku to meet the French I could easily clear the second goal.

    Now, by the time I was out of the dregs there were four cities in Portuguese Brazil and another city in Spanish Venezuela. Even if I had an army capable of acting against them (probably viable with Heavy Swordsmen), the time alone to move the armies there probably made the current third goal prohibitive.

    I don't think it makes sense to try and play it out, so I would rather explore alternative third goals instead. Any ideas?
     
  8. Nyayr

    Nyayr Prince

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    A small thing bit. Sounds like moving Quitu on the gold a bit right, is still historical, though you don't get the gold mine gain.

    1) You do get a Hill with a river defence crossing and a little more space, which is a lot better defendable. Also makes the dog soldier popping up easier to handle instead of going up hill on them.
    2) You can touch 2 more mountain 2F/1P and I wasn't on the spot of Quitu now Corn or was that appear later or only in 1700 scenario?

    Maybe even with luck you can see the 'explorers' through the carribean and they land on the other side of the river ;)
     
  9. Alexius08

    Alexius08 Emperor

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    How about no cities lost until 1810 as the new third UHV condition?
     
  10. triplebassist

    triplebassist Chieftain

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    That feels rough. Like Leo, I've had my best success against the invaders when I've fallen back to my most defensible cities and accepted the loss of Caqonatambu temporarily. Having to put a ton of resources to defend a city without defensive bonuses for the UHV feels like it wouldn't be nearly as fun as trying to bend without breaking and recapturing the city after a couple of turns
     
  11. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I am not a fan of the lose no cities goal in general, and in this context it feels more fun to be able to withdraw when the conquerors land.

    I would like the third goal to reflect some kind of alt-history outcome that would have happened if the Inca were able to defend against the Europeans.
     
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  12. Krieger-FS

    Krieger-FS Warlord

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    About the techs, I don't have any strong opinion besides that they definitely should start with Alloys, since that knowledge was known in the Andes at least since Chavín times.

    Regarding alternative UHVs, I do like your idea about controlling some % of South American population. IIRC, the Inca saw themselves as the center of the universe (Cusco was called as "the belly bottom" of the world) and thus destined to control all the known world, so that objective makes sense. Besides, this alt-history outcome against the Europeans is not that far away from history, given that they established a Neo-Inca state that lasted another 40 years continuosly fighting against the Spanish and their indian allies. There is even a Inca myth/prophecy (called Inkarri) that told the Inca were destined to eventually return and rise again as an Empire all over the Andes. The independist rebellion of Túpac Amaru, in the late 18th century, was partially inspired and legitimized by this story.

    For other options, I have to look and read more about them to see if I can find something unusual and interesting.
     
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  13. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Yeah, I am just wondering which formulation of the goal is the best. Including the deadline, for which 1700 feels a bit too early.
     
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  14. need my speed

    need my speed Rex Omnium Imperarium

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    Something related to their economical system, which in pop culture is sometimes held up as some form of early communism (no it isn't)? Wealth, high living standards?
     
  15. MechatronicJazz

    MechatronicJazz Prince

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    Maybe control all the Andes by 1800? It would require surviving the conquerors, retaking lost ground, and expanding to cover Chile to Columbia before the modern civ spawns in South America.
     
  16. freethink

    freethink Prince

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    If the Incas survive the European invasion (making peace), then the Incas should instantly get several techs to at least get them into the Medieval Era, realistically had Inca, Aztec or Maya survived, they would had transformed in the first decades after contact. Meiji Japan is the real life exhibit #1. This would give a great boost to the player dog these underdog civs.
     
  17. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0276.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0277.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0278.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0280.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0281.JPG

    Just an illustration of what late game Inca can look like in conjunction with this goal (I just added the display and nothing else). I think an appropriate goal would be

    Control 90% of the population in South America by 1775 AD.

    Unless you can conquer every other colony on the continent this also requires expansion and growth, which is fun to do and makes the goal less single minded. To support it somehow, I think the Inca core should expand at some point to include the Peruvian coast and Bolivian highlands (in effect, adding Chan Chan and Tiwanaku to the core). I think a good requirement for this is the Renaissance. That way, you also have to do reasonably well in research.

    As a side note, by coincidence the Aztecs also managed to avoid being conquered and are doing quite well. This truly is an Amerindian America.
     
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  18. phoenixfire7

    phoenixfire7 Warlord

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    I don't think the Latin American civs should spawn if the Inca survive and conquer the Americas, there'd be no Latin influence in America in the first place
     
  19. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    I think that is already the case.
     
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  20. Leoreth

    Leoreth Friend Next Door Moderator

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    My brain while building Tambo after Tambo:
     

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