Less Science more Culture & Religion?

[stroibot]

So there's a really few civilizations with science focus isn't it? Like Sumerian, Chinese and Brazilian (kind of). Right?

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Direct science bonuses
Sumer
Spain
Arabia
China

Indirect (bonus to all districts)
Brazil
Japan
Germany

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Science is generally easier to generate then culture. Population give 0.7 science vs 0.3 culture. Campus have much better adjacency bonus then theater districts and its buildings have higher yields it also come earlier.

The main way to generate culture is by having great works which can be pretty expensive to get.

You can say that civs such as America and England are among the most science and culture focused ones due to needed alot of science and culture to unlock their very powerful stuff. Both America and England also seems to be among the best civs at winning culture victory.

 

[rpgalon]

Early campus districts are looking to be a really bad investment unless you can get some good adj bonus rolling.

I would rather build a monument, granary, water mill, holy site, settler, builder, industrial district, comercial hub. Before a campus.

Even if the numbers on campus buildings and adjacency bonus science looks to be relevant, in the actual gameplay, they are almost useless and actually a setback (talking about early game), just compare a campus district focused let's play with any of the FilthyRobot let's play, where he completely ignores districs other than industrial and commercial and go for early 8+ cities, he gets the same science as the guy who went for campus districts and totally outclass them in everything else.

I actually find the culture tree far more important than the science, the impact a police have in your game is HUGE, like the 100% military production cards, the 50% settler card, the +2 charge builder card, the extra envoys from an early new government, border expansion, just a straight HUGE impact.

But that is just my conclusion from watching a bunch of civ 6 gameplay with prince AI.
Maybe i'm totally off on this.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Even if the numbers on campus buildings and adjacency bonus science looks to be relevant, in the actual gameplay, they are almost useless and actually a setback, just compare a campus district focused let's play with any of the FilthyRobot let's play, where he completely ignores districs other than industrial and commercial and go for early 8+ cities, he gets the same science as the guy who went for campus districts and totally outclass them in everything else.

This tells us nothing. 8 cities with campuses will beat 8 cities without campuses by an enormous amount.

If we do the math. A citizen give 0.7 science.
So a campus with an adjacency bonus of 2 give about the same amount of science as 3 citizens.
A library give 2 science or +3 science with Hypathia (very resonable to get her if you do early campus + project which I think everyone who do early campus should do).
So a library is 3 citizens in terms of science and with Hypathia is is somewhat better then 4 citizens in terms of science.

University 4 science or 6 with Newton so a university give more science then 4 or 7 citizens.

Research Lab 5 or 8 with Einstein so more science then 7 or 11 citizens.

There are a card that double the yield from campus buildings, a campus with such card can give more science then 30+ citizens even if the campus itself have zero adjacency bonus.

 

[rpgalon]

This tells us nothing. 8 cities with campuses will beat 8 cities without campuses by an enormous amount.

If we do the math. A citizen give 0.7 science.
So a campus with an adjacency bonus of 2 give about the same amount of science as 3 citizens.
A library give 2 science or +3 science with Hypathia (very resonable to get her if you do early campus + project which I think everyone who do early campus should do).
So a library is 3 citizens in terms of science and with Hypathia is is somewhat better then 4 citizens in terms of science.

University 4 science or 6 with Newton so a university give more science then 4 or 7 citizens.

Research Lab 5 or 8 with Einstein so more science then 7 or 11 citizens.

There are a card that double the yield from campus buildings, a campus with such card can give more science then 30+ citizens even if the campus itself have zero adjacency bonus.

If you are building a campus you are not building a city, oportunity cost yada yada.

I'm only saying that from the games vs prince AI that I saw, campus looks to be one of the last districts to build because there seems to have better stuff to spend the production early on.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

If you are building a campus you are not building a city

In the short run yes. But a city will not give as much science as a campus will in the short run either and people who have played civ games know that getting stuff a few turns earlier can have huge impact. A city do not generate any great people points either.

A 2 science campus + library + scientist will give 6 science which about the same science as 8.5 citizens. Which could mean getting the industrial zone and commerce hub earlier and other important stuff such as better military units before the enemy which could lead to more and better cities then just go settler into settler into settler.

Getting a campus early may mean you have finished the eurka for education early which make it very possible to get university very early which make campus alot more powerful in terms of science.

 

[rpgalon]

In the short run yes. But a city will not give as much science as a campus will in the short run either and people who have played civ games know that getting stuff a few turns earlier can have huge impact. A city do not generate any great people points either.

A 2 science campus + library + scientist will give 6 science which about the same science as 8.5 citizens. Which could mean getting the industrial zone and commerce hub earlier and other important stuff such as better military units before the enemy which could lead to more and better cities then just go settler into settler into settler.

Getting a campus early may mean you have finish the eurka for education early which make it very possible to get university very early which make campus alot more powerful in terms of science.

The problem is extra cities does not only give science, it gives extra production, extra resources, extra culture, ability to build repeated districts and what I believe is the biggest bonus of early settler... growth potential: not only growing a bigger population cost more food than growing a smaller one, the housing cap is an enormous challenge to growing cities early on in the game. Breaking that 6-7 pop before neighborhood is hard as ****, the best way to avoid it is just building settler after settler.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

Cities cost production and take time before they pay back their cost.

Yes you need cities to build extra copies of districts but it will take some time for the new city to build a district. And each city you build will delay building up your old cities. Basically the more settlers you build earlier the less developed your cities will be in the short run and that can be a fatal weakness.

Housing is not that hard to get early in the game, a farm give 0.5 housing so 10 farms give +5 housing and there are other source of housing as well. It is not impossible to get size 15 cities before neighbourhood which is far more then 6-7 pop.

Settlers increase in cost and generally the best locations are taken first so each settler have a worse return of invesment and a few military units can capture an arbitary number of cities.

The goal is to expand but that don't mean the best way is to build settler after settler.

 

[indradiva]

Yes, there are many ways of increasing housing way before neighbourhoods. Also remember, the more districts you build, the more yields from city-states you get.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Direct science bonuses
Sumer
Spain
Arabia
China

Indirect (bonus to all districts)
Brazil
Japan
Germany

I'd put Russia and France in the indirect section too. Russia can get extra science from trade routes and France can use their extra spy to steal techs.

 

[rpgalon]

Maybe the players are still bad with civ 6, but I have yet to see anyone not struggle to keep up with the housing cap when their cities reaches near the 6-7 pop. The question is how much you are spending to grow another pop.

Also, I'm not saying you should build settler after settler to infinity, sorry if I wasn't clear, what I'm saying is that campus looks to be one of the worse investments early in the game if you do not have a really good spot, compared to the options you could go for like builders/settlers.

 

[indradiva]

Maybe the players are still bad with civ 6, but I have yet to see anyone not struggle to keep up with the housing cap when their cities reaches near the 6-7 pop. The question is how much you are spending to grow another pop.

Also, I'm not saying you should build settler after settler to infinity, sorry if I wasn't clear, what I'm saying is that campus looks to be one of the worse investments early in the game if you do not have a really good spot, compared to the options you could go for like builders/settlers.

lol, many LPs don't build enough farms because they don't build enough builders, that's why they are struggling. Campuses are always good, because you can do projects and gain yields from city states, even without adjacency bonuses and buildings.

 

[fmm]

Russia has a direct science bonus. It might not be a very good bonus, but it certainly gives you science straight-up.

 

[Amrunril]

There definitely are a lot more civs with culture and faith bonuses than with science bonuses. I think that's a mistake, especially since the civs you would most expect to have science bonuses overlap so much with the ones in the vanilla game. Still, when you compare it to Civ V, Civ VI seems to at least be moving (slowly) in the right direction. Out of over 40 civs in Civ V, only 3 have direct science bonuses, and none of them were part of the vanilla release.

 

[Promethian]

I'd put Russia and France in the indirect section too. Russia can get extra science from trade routes and France can use their extra spy to steal techs.

Spy can only get eureka for techs the target has that you do not.

 

[Ivan Hunger]

Spy can only get eureka for techs the target has that you do not.

So? That's still a science boost.

 

[Olleus]

There definitely are a lot more civs with culture and faith bonuses than with science bonuses. I think that's a mistake, especially since the civs you would most expect to have science bonuses overlap so much with the ones in the vanilla game. Still, when you compare it to Civ V, Civ VI seems to at least be moving (slowly) in the right direction. Out of over 40 civs in Civ V, only 3 have direct science bonuses, and none of them were part of the vanilla release.

The problem is that science is too important (at least for all civs before Civ6, don't know yet if that is still the case). So a boost to science is a boost to everything. That makes it bland incredibly hard to balance. It's no surprise that the most OP civs in Civ5 were those Babylon and Korea

 

[Abraxis]

I actually find the culture tree far more important than the science, the impact a police have in your game is HUGE, like the 100% military production cards, the 50% settler card, the +2 charge builder card, the extra envoys from an early new government, border expansion, just a straight HUGE impact.

But that is just my conclusion from watching a bunch of civ 6 gameplay with prince AI.
Maybe i'm totally off on this.

Considering the tech tree is so focused on military units it would stand to reason that it would be significantly less important on a difficulty with no military opposition.

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

The most science focused nations are not those with bonuses towards science but those that get really good stuff with science such as America and England.