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Let down by CiV? Loving Paradox games?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by frkhead, Sep 24, 2010.

  1. Coase

    Coase Chieftain

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2005
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    I tried to like EU3 and HoI and all the others, and I just...couldn't. I don't think they are all that complex, but the massive amount of detail is overwhelming. And I've never been able to find a good way to either view that information in a useful manner, or be able to manipulate all that data to work to my advantage.

    I forget which one it was--I think Hearts of Iron--but as far as I could tell the game thought "Uruguay economy dips 5%" was given as much importance as "Germany Invades Poland." I just couldn't handle that. And even though I bought each EU franchise, they all seemed to have the same info overload problem.

    I'm sure if I really got down into it, I could tell what info to discard and what options to choose to improve the information. But I'm at the age where easier games take precedence over games I have to work just to make playable and enjoyable.
     
  2. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    Ahhh, I get you. And yes, I agree that there are things the AI seems to do EVERY game that are rather ahistorical. The AI can't seem to handle France anymore. I played a game where, in one series of events from a save, Dauphine was released from France, and ended up taking over the REST of France completely. So, Le BBB became Le Not-Quite-As-Big Light-Green Blob. Go figure. Sometimes it becomes Le Big Burgundy Blob, too.

    And yes, I regularly see a Castillian African Coastal Empire popping up. North Africa, and all along the rest of the coast. it's a bit frustrating at times.

    I think the following neatly sums it up:




    :)

    That makes sense. I'm still learning much of the rest of the game. Warfare is also still difficult for me at times (I'm trying to break the damn Burgundians currently and their stacks of 30-40K Cavalry...).




    I haven't tried DW because, while I'm game for updated graphics and such, I'm a little less sanguine about removing the ability to buy provincial improvements with cash and having to burn magistrates to make 'em. I wish that was an option rather than a forced change.
     
  3. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    I'm a little worried about that as well. Especially since right now I'm playing a game where I've had massive expansion as Castille turned Spain and I can only make about 2 magistrates/year. :( I'd never get anything built!!
     
  4. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    That's one of the criticisms I've been seeing on the EU3 boards -- namely that having a big nation is somewhat counter-productive because you CANNOT build buildings often enough to make it work. I suppose it's intended to stop your nation from snowballing out of control to the point where you can run roughshod over the AI, but I still think it's kind of a mistake to make it a REQUIREMENT that this change, as opposed to an option.

    But, it's a moot point, really. The change is there and (as far as I know) isn't going anywhere. So you either play HTTT and buy your stuff, or you play DW and use the "right" governmental structure to guarantee multiple magistrates per year.
     
  5. al-rashid

    al-rashid Chieftain

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    Sep 28, 2010
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    65
    Has anyone here managed to make Byzantine into Greece and/or take control of Anatolia? I decided to take up the challenge but found it incredibly difficult to incite rebellions in the 1399 start, plus the fact that the Timurid empire back out of the war early. And on the improved 1405 start I find the Ottoman peasant rebels to be useless, when their not running off to Moldavia or elsewhere they're attacking my allies and leaving the ottoman army completely alone -_-
     
  6. Lance of Llanwy

    Lance of Llanwy King

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2006
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    710
    Divine Wind also makes playing as the Ming a complete waste of time because the faction system hamstrings them so badly. It is actually better to release all of the Chinese minors and play as one of them than it is to actually play Ming. All the factions do is make it so you can't do things. Want to build something? You better hope the bureaucrat faction is in charge, because otherwise you can't. Want to colonize? You've got to replace them with the eunuchs, otherwise you can't. Want to go to war? Looks like you need to finagle the temple faction into power!
    The temple faction that won't let you build temples!!:crazyeye:
    It's just completely awful play-design. Some one complained about it to them and they told him he was supposed to play as Manchu.
     
  7. Maniacal

    Maniacal the green Napoleon

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    Afaik the ONLY nation Kyriakos has played until (maybe) recently is Byzantium. I'd recommend asking him for help :)
     
  8. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    Haven't tried China yet in DW but I've heard it can be frustrating.

    I also hated China blobbing so much so I like the fact that they are hamstrung in a way since I like playing Central Asian countries from time to time. It was very challenging with a monster like Ming ready to wolf you down. Still pretty challenging now as a horde anyway. :D

    I think what they should do is let you have the option of playing Ming normally and have it hamstrung when played as the AI.

    If worse comes to worse, I'm sure there will be some good mods like Magna Mundi that sort it out to most people's satisfaction.
     
  9. sketch162000

    sketch162000 Warlord

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    Oct 12, 2010
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    Yeah, I just got EU3 because I heard all the acclaim on these boards, but I am at a total loss as to how to get going. It looks right up my alley--empire management, colonization, diplomacy, trade, science!! But I have to begrudge the fact that the game really doesn't help noobs to get the ball rolling. In Civilization, the player is at least nudged into some kind of action on turn 1--namely, founding your first city, which then forces you to choose production and research in order to advance to the next turn.

    EU3 is just kind of like, "Welcome to the game! You are now the ruler of England! Go." Then I read the paradox forums and the tips for noobs generally assume that you have been playing along and encountering common difficulties, instead of just sitting there on pause on Jan. 1 1399 without the foggiest idea of what you should be thinking about. Gah.
     
  10. blasto

    blasto Prince

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    Jun 14, 2010
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    Exactly! It's like, for every praise at how great this game is compared to others in regards to AI and such, that many more complaints could be suggested regarding the criminally inept and non-existent intuitive feedback.

    Its not a game...it just becomes an exercise in.... nope, just exercise.
     
  11. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    I would suggest that you guys do the tutorials, but I suspect you already have done those before coming here. They actually aren't the most helpful tutorials in the world, but the do help you open a door to seeing what is in the game.

    The lack of tutorials I actually found to be a mixed blessing in hindsight: it forced me to get into the game and experience it for myself instead of studying it a lot before playing. It was a lot more enjoyable for me - though I've also played games where that was not the case. IDK why it was different with EU3 for me. Anyway, trial and error is a great way to learn. You can always restart if you don't like the outcomes. :)

    But yes, I also agree there is a LOT of information you need to know and manage in the game. It is definitely overwhelming at first. Here are sme of the main concepts I find to be important in the game (I'll probably forget several):

    -COTs + merchants
    -colonial efforts + colonists
    -your relations with neighbors + diplomats + spies
    -The Holy See + missionaries
    -The HRE (if you're in it, can still be interesting to watch if not)
    -provincial decisions + magistrates
    -economy + tech rate + minting
    -policy sliders + national decisions + advisors
    -infamy + expansion + military
    -military upkeep + revolt rate + at war? + generals
    -missions + prestige

    Those probably aren't listed in a very cohesive or explanatory way, but those are most of the things I'm thinking about as I play. If you focus on learning one set of ideas at a time as you play the next time will be much easier. I restarted several times before 1420 because I kept learning new things I wanted to test. :)

    Good luck! It's a great game IMO.
     
  12. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    When I tried the tutorials on EU3 Complete (before I bought HTTT), they wouldn't work. I eventually gave up and just dived in. I think you can play individual games and focus on each of the above-mentioned elements of the game to teach yourself about them. HRE is gonna be probably the last thing I get into.
     
  13. sketch162000

    sketch162000 Warlord

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    The tutorials are bugged, I hear. I get through one and then I crash to desktop. I seem to be getting somewhere at this point--I'm England and trying to conquer Ireland without pissing too many people off. :p

    Getting enough magistrates to actually do anything between wars is a big PITA for me, though. Any tips?
     
  14. gingerbill

    gingerbill Prince

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    agreed . Paradox games are too buggy for my liking , certainly not better than civ

    hehe spot on . Though i think off buggy unfinished produts as my first thought about paradox games.
     
  15. Disraeli

    Disraeli Chieftain

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    Nov 27, 2010
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    Build galleys until you have more galleys than the ottomans, and probably a few more to be safe. Build a regiment or two, then park your navy in the straits between Greece and Anatolia and make sure to declare war when the Ottoman army is in Turkey. I've done this twice, once allying Wallachia and once not allying Wallachia. Wallachia is a decent help against the Serbs and I think Bosnians that you'll be up against, but it's not good when they take territory because then you don't get it, and it's also not good to rely on them because they tend to peace out.

    Don't declare any wars trying to reclaim cores before taking on the Ottomans; with this you either gain territory in Turkey which will work against you in the first war, or you declare war on some Greek nation which gets you in to trouble with the Italians.

    Once the war starts, hopefully the entire Ottoman army will be out of the war in Turkey, and they won't try to take the straits with their navy because yours is better. Your main fight will be against the Ottoman vassals, so it's one 2 province nation against two 2 province nations. With skill and luck, you'll be able to beat them. Now here you can take two paths; either let rebels take all the Greek Ottoman territory for you, which is the clearly better option but I consider it to be a bit gamey.

    If you decide not to let the rebels capture provinces for you, then you have to get the provinces the old-fashioned way; peace treaties. However, the Ottomans are really stubborn about letting their Greek territories go to a two province weakling, so occupy all the possible provinces, and then if that doesn't do it, bait their navy by placing a single transport or galley in the straits, and move your main navy out. When their navy goes to kill the transport, send in the ships that you moved away earlier. Repeat until their navy is destroyed and you have a few more ships and enough warscore to get a decent settlement or hit their stability until they crack.

    The navy-baiting tactic is also pretty gamey, but it's the only way I've found to get the provinces in a peacedeal. Hope this helps.
     
  16. Thormodr

    Thormodr Servant of Civ Supporter

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    To each his/her own.

    Paradox is a middle market company that caters to a specific crowd. They certainly aren't perfect but they clearly give a damn.

    Outside of HOI3 and it's crappy launch, Paradox games have been pretty good lately. They patch things regularly and their interaction with their fans is excellent.

    I like their games because they are original, educational, challenging and fun. They also don't have a dead weight called 2K Games forcing them to cut corners and make the game half arsed to satisfy shareholders.

    It's good that they are Indie. Just like Stardock.

    I love history and historical what ifs. They deliver.
     
  17. Solo4114

    Solo4114 Prince

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    Well, you don't really start raking in the magistrates until you hit Empire as your form of government. Feudal Monarchy doesn't really do it. You can also increase their frequency via sliders, but, of course, that takes time.

    Exactly. They're not producing allegedly "AAA" titles. They aren't in the same league as, say, 2K-backed-Firaxis. And they know how to work within a budget, apparently. Something which I could easily argue Firaxis did not, at least as evidenced by Civ5.

    Look, folks may think Civ games are more FUN to play, and I'm not going to argue with them and what they perceive as fun. But in my experience, EU3 has been a lot of fun, very stable (tutorials notwithstanding), and generally satisfying. The EU3 community seems generally friendly and helpful, there's a mod scene (which I haven't really explored), and I haven't seen any major bugs in any of the versions I've played. (EU3 Complete and HTTT).

    If folks want to get into a "Tastes great" vs. "Less filling" debate, or a "My team's better than yours and my dad can beat up your dad" argument, knock yourself out, but I think the simple answer is that the two franchises offer different things for different people. They have a little bit of overlap, but they really are VERY different games. So, ok, maybe you like oranges better than apples, but aside from them growing on trees and both being fruit, there ain't a ton else in common for comparison's sake.
     
  18. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    Problem as I see it that civ 4 was interesting, challenging, needed planing and execution, when civ 5 become do evident thinks and you win. you can do them slightly better or slightly worse, bat process and result is the same. your building decisions have impact, eventually, but not that big.
    in short, it stop to be a game where I can puzzle solution based on situation. So, it stop to be fun, because generally you made only 2-3 big decision per game, all other time it is just tactical stuff.
     
  19. JohnnyW

    JohnnyW Gave up on this game

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    I experienced the tutorial bug too. Simply restart after each one. You'll only need to do each one once. ;) They were helpful (IIRC...), but definitely only scratched the surface of the game, if that.
     
  20. NBAfan

    NBAfan boss

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    Hey guys, you know we have a "Other Games" forum? There are 3 Paradox threads going too!:D
     

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