1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Let's Cheat Too! Playing Immortal With (most of) The AI Bonuses

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Jex, Jul 12, 2012.

  1. Jex

    Jex Drafted Rifles Are OP

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Cincinatti, OH
    Tired of having the AI the out tech you? Tired of them starting with bonus techs? With extra units? With reduced civic upkeep? Reduced maintenance costs? Have you ever wished you could take those same bonuses and show what someone not completely brain dead could do with them? Tired of leading, rhetorical questions?

    This thread exists to see just exactly how insane the AI bonuses are on higher difficulties, and what some skilled players could do with them. I've modified the Civ4HandicapInfo.xml file so that, where ever it was possible, the player has same bonuses as the Immortal AI. If you'd like to play along, check out the instructions on where to install the modified xml file below.

    Our Leader is Charlemange, hereby christened Burger King With Extra Cheese, because cheesing is exactly what I expect to be done with this map:



    • Starting Techs: Hunting and Mysticism. Hunting is sort of a waste, since we would have started with it anyway. Oh well.
    • Extra Starting Techs: Agriculture and Archery.
    • Traits: Protective and Imperialistic. Protective is pretty much agreed upon to be the worst trait in the game, but it can be useful if you find yourself in an early defensive war, or go massed drafted rifles. Imperialistic is one of the classic REXing traits, giving a 50% production bonus to settlers, and double the rate of Great Generals.
    And then there's the UB, a courthouse that cuts extra city maintenance, and the UU, a pikeman that gets a 100% bonus vs. melee units. But do we care about any of that? Heck no! On to the start!



    :crazyeye: Er, I think the best thing to do is fan the units outward on turn 1, checking the surrounding land. SIP looks good, though an argument could be made for 1W. You trade some hill production for a food neutral gems, and the ability to farm the corn right away. (Remember, you start with both Agriculture and a Worker!)

    Settings used to make this map:



    Immortal difficulty should be quotation marks. You'll be getting most of the same bonuses that the AI gets, making it more a super-charged Noble. The AI still has some advantages, just due to the fact that some xml values only existed for the AI, and not the player. Spoiler for complete list of what WASN'T changed:
    Spoiler :

    • AI still gets a -50% discount to upgrading units, you don't.
    • AI can still produce buildings faster, and possibly still have a general production bonus. The relevant values here are iAITrainPercent, iAIConstructPercent, and iAICreatePercent. All are set to 80, so they're paying 80% of whatever these are. Construct sounds like building cost, Create sounds like engineer wonder rushing cost, and Train may be Great Person cost. Hard to tell.
    • AI pays half of what you do in unit supply.
    • AI suffers from only 60% of the war wariness that you would.
    • AI has an "iAIPerEraModifier" of -4, whatever that means.
    • AI gets an "iAIWorkModifier" of 75. Not sure what this means, perhaps it's related to the time needed for workers to build improvements?
    • AI cities require 85% of the food you need to grow a pop. Their cities will still grow slightly faster than yours.


    Other than that, you're getting the same bonuses as the AI. Same city maintenance, same discount on units (80% of normal), same starting techs, same bonus against barbs, same discount on techs, same starting units, etc, etc.

    To play the map, extract the XML file within the attached zip file to your BeyondTheSword\CustomAssets\XML\GameInfo folder, typically located within your Documents\My Games directory. This will cause the modified XML file to be loaded everytime you start the game, like an automatically loaded mod. Remember to remove this file when not playing this variant, otherwise every Immortal game you play will have these modifications. Got that? If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

    And if you're on Linux, replace the backslashes with proper slashes, and utter whatever voodoo magic I assume regular Linux users must know to make their computer work. Godspeed, brave warrior.

    Anyway, enjoy the map, and have fun! I've learned a lot about how the game handles the difficulty levels during the short time it took to make this variant.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Why not just play Noble? On Noble you have all the same bonuses, and draw backs as do the AI.
     
  3. Jex

    Jex Drafted Rifles Are OP

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Cincinatti, OH
    Because this sounds more impressive. :lol: But there are some subtle and not-so-subtle differences between Noble and "balanced" Immortal. Like you start with extra techs, and extra units. Techs are a little cheaper on Noble, if I remember correctly. (EDIT: No they aren't, I was lying. Tech trades will still go faster on virtue of the higher trade caps, but there is no tech discount for either player or AI above Warlord.) The AI actually doesn't get a tech discount on Immortal; YOU just have to pay more beakers for the same techs. Units are cheaper too. (EDIT: This is true. Players actually get a bonus to unit cost compared to AI for all levels below Emperor, if I interpreted the xml file correctly.)

    I probably won't get to playing this until tomorrow. I've had enough of staring at Civ related things for one evening, thank you. ;)
     
  4. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Minnesota
    The start is more than enough to beat IMM easily alone, you don't need the bonuses.
     
  5. Jex

    Jex Drafted Rifles Are OP

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Cincinatti, OH
    I know, that's why I picked it. If we're going to break the game, we might as well do it absolutely.
     
  6. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Then you might as go all the way with Deity. ;)
     
  7. Jex

    Jex Drafted Rifles Are OP

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Cincinatti, OH
    Another day, another thread, ha.
     
  8. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    5,107
    You could have changed the values you meantion were 'unchangable' for the AI to whatever is used for the human. At least some of them. Setting upgrade costs to 100 for example. That would make it a true level playing field. Though I suppose the AI is quite humstrung already :D

    Great start though and it will be fun to see just how huge an impact the extra tech and personnel is.
     
  9. Killroyan

    Killroyan Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    2,099
    Ok this will be interesting. I do not have time to play this but it sounds really funny! BTW never knew that the AI starts out with 3 extra archers. No wonder they score so much more on the power graph. This way settler first almost sounds right with the worker there and able to work the corn almost immediately. Moving 1W is a nono though if you ask me.
     
  10. Handel

    Handel Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    514
    Actually even on Noble the AI still have serious bonuses.
     
  11. Htadus

    Htadus A and L's dad

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2005
    Messages:
    3,441
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Oh I feel giddy looking at this game. You must have been reading many minds. Start a game with a worker? And wet corn? And riveside gems? And free techs? Ahhhhh I guess this is what Civ4 heaven look like. :D
     
  12. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    22,327
    Location:
    UK
    Yes but the Ai needs the bonuses to stay ahead as they cannot beat the player who will abuse the way the computer is programmed.


    For instance give us 4 archers and we will worker steal off the nearest 2-3 AI. The Ai will never worker steal!!

    We will pretty much beeline Oracle. The Ai rarely does this. Same for lib. If all the AI went paper, edu, lib directly each game imagine the panic of the top players.

    Give us a free worker and we will essentially be 15 turns faster. meaning CS and currency 15 turns sooner. it's overkill. As for all the gems. ackk.


    Their should be a challenge. Such as to reach rifles by 1ad or something fun like that. Or who can win fastest domination you can only attack cities with rifles.
     
  13. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Minnesota

    If the AI started bee lining Lib I wouldn't care as I still would smash them with Trebs, and junk. ;) But if they started bee lining for my Oracle this would be a tragic matter!


    But Rifles by 1 AD? That is insanity, even for this start as we don't know how amazing the surrounding land is, and oh man would the surrounding land have to be amazing!
     
  14. Um the Muse

    Um the Muse King

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    surrounded in the USA
    With AI level bonuses? I bet it wouldn't even be that hard. I bet you could stay at two cities and still make it. AI research bonuses and diplo trades? Yea verily! No AI demands and bonuses because your leader is similar to theirs? MUCH easier to get them to friendly, lifting trade caps and catapulting your research to maybe three or four times as fast.

    With the ability to keep any and all cities that you capture, all you need to do is stock up on wonders workers and you'll be incredibly far ahead. Don't forget that you can easily trade for iron if you need to here, too.
     
  15. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,145
    Location:
    Minnesota
    You doubt you could do it with 2 cities, besides it would be much better to maximize your land anyways for research. But I did forget that you get AI bonuses, and they get to be huge. But I still don't think 1 AD, maybe 500 AD or so.
     
  16. coanda

    coanda Emperor

    Joined:
    May 12, 2009
    Messages:
    1,601
    Should have no trouble snowballing into a HA conquest of your continent with that sort of starting kick. If that's the only continent, you win right there; if there are other continents, you should have a vastly superior tech rate due to AI upkeep costs, human worker management, and a whole continent of land to play with.
     
  17. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    22,327
    Location:
    UK
    So the challenge is to play this game and reach rifles by the earliest date. Also domination by the earliest date. 1ad impossible?? We'll see.

    Now we have a thread.

    Game on people!!!

    Don't forget with 4 archers you can worker steal. Expect an insane Oracle grab.
     
  18. Handel

    Handel Prince

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    514
    I don't dispute that. What I understood a long time ago is in Civ 4 the devs tried to implement an economic model which forbids city spamming, but they failed (or simply didn't care) to make an adequate AI. That's why they implemented AI bonuses which allows the AI civs to spam as much cities as free land then can find. It is like the AI is playing Civ 3 instead of Civ 4.
     
  19. Jex

    Jex Drafted Rifles Are OP

    Joined:
    May 22, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Cincinatti, OH
    Judging by the xml values, at least, the AI bonuses are actually a lot less ridiculous than I get the impression by playing against them. Sure, they get a 20% discount to research, production, city maintenance, and stuff, but I've always thought it must have been something like 50%. The biggest advantages on Immortal seem to be starting with the extra techs, a worker, and 3 freaking archers.

    Any advice on the opening? The opening confuses me, because we already have a worker! Is settler the best move in situations like this? 20 turns to settler, until borders expand and the wet corn can be hooked up. That is, unless the capital is moved 1W, which lets the worker start on the corn 5 turns sooner, otherwise it sits there having nothing to do for 5 turns. Or should we grow to size 3 and work on a barracks first, of all things? :confused:

    And I'll probably play this map as I usually do, nothing crazy. Just a lot of bonus powered REXing with the usual beeline to Lib after getting the essential economy techs hooked up. It'll be interesting to see if the AI can keep tech pace; With this kind of start and having the playing field mostly leveled, I doubt it.
     
  20. K.Murx

    K.Murx Warlord

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2011
    Messages:
    139
    Location:
    Germany
    Just play advanced start, then?
    (Or whatever that mode was called where you can buy things for points at the beginning).
     

Share This Page