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Let's get rid of workers . . .

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by CGG1066, Oct 30, 2010.

  1. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    . . . (well, not quite), but here is a unit that could almost be eliminated and make the game ore intuitive, automatic, and let you focus on playing the game.

    Here's my suggestion: by working a tile, the relevant improvement (farm on plains/grassland, lumber mill on forests, mine on hills, or resource improvement on resource) would be built automatically after a set number of turns. No worker needed. You get the improvement built where you need it. No micromanagement. No AI workers doing things (and going places) you don't want.

    This also simplifies the build order in the early game. Let's face it, we want to be cranking out military units or wonders, not lame ass workers that only slow down the game later.

    You would still use workers to (a) build roads/RRs, (b) build forts, and (c) clear forests/jungle (which isn't done automatically because you could very well want those around - the cleared forest/jungle tile would then be available for a mine/farm).

    The only think you lose are trading posts - those ugly trading posts, and the next of iteration of Civ should have a much more sophisticated and intuitive economy anyway.

    (I've also heard that the AI of workers takes up a lot of resources - this will eliminate these issues as well, if it really is a problem).
     
  2. Brawndo

    Brawndo Warlord

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    I'm all for Call to Power's public works system being implemented into the Civ series
     
  3. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    why not to make worker units expendable instead? to create an improvement in 1 turn, just like work boats or great people.
    also creating an improvement should cost gold in this case to differentiate expences.
     
  4. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    That still has the draw backs of clogging up production ques (even more so because you'll have to build a lot more workers). And you'll still have to manage them as units, so it won't save you anything. Meanwhile, the workers you have on automate will still all rush to a new city halfway around the world because of problematic AI (I don't fault the developers for this - the automatic AI is much improved, and hard to do. But if you follow my suggestion, it's completely unnecessary).

    I should have been more upfront with the philosophy behind this change: make management aspects automatic and intuitive, while making it manageable for the AI. This means cutting back on things that require micromanagement in ways that REDUCE what you need to do every turn.

    Making workers expendable, charging gold for improvements, etc., these just layer more demands on the player every turn.
     
  5. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    ok i see the point

    but your suggestion is not so good (of course it is good in the way it reduces MM) because of
    1. in its current form it limits number of improvements to number of tile types. so improvements can be removed from the game completely, just show farms, mines etc to indicate that a tile is being worked
    2. how roads will be created with this system? and forests chopped?
    (btw, how it was realized in CTP?)
     
  6. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    To answer 2. first: despite the title - my suggestion just limits workers to roads, forts, removing forests/jungle (see first post).

    Going back to 1. question, the only improvement this would remove is trade-posts, which are lame. It would be simpler just to show farms on tiles being worked, but I do like the idea that it takes a few turns to get a tile into full production and that tiles are vulnerable to pillaging - especially for resources (so an enemy could pillage your oil and make your tanks less effective). These aspects of improvements enhance game-play, in my view, and it would be a shame to lose them.

    (Maybe unworked improvements turn into fallow fields/abandoned mines that need to be "repaired" when they go into production again. I like that idea, but it isn't central - the game-play effect would be to limit the instantaneousness of reshuffling workers - something I think is interesting, but needs testing).
     
  7. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    I do see your point that it only allows for mines on hills, whereas the current game allows farms on hills. I'm not sure how big of a deal this is, as cities usually have a plain/grassland to provide food. If the devs or mods want the ability, maybe the city chooses which to build on a hill based on what it needs, with the option to override from the city screen. It's a small problem, with a simple fix, even if it brings back a bit of the MM I wanted to avoid.
     
  8. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    how about to build improvements from city screen:


    or just buy all improvements for gold by clicking on the map?
     
  9. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    There was an idea almost identical to this posted not too long ago...

    Here it is:
    NoWorkers ever needed on map for improvin, MajKira, 12/10/10

    I don't really see any drawbacks in changing to this system, so long as all the correct factors are taken into account (like adjusting improvement build time to counteract the loss of the need to produce worker units).
     
  10. zimmah

    zimmah Chieftain

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    wokrers are fine the way they are now, except for the fact that in Civ 4 they were better.

    in civ 4 you could at least tell them to 'focus on this city only' so they wouldn't go from your capital to city you just conquered, on the other side of the map, risking their lifes and usually just being captured by barbarians or other civs...

    and then even IF they make it, they make 1 imporvement just to return to the capital.

    talk about inefficient....

    but really, just the wrokers AI should be improved and you should be able to tell them what to do without having to give them orders every turn.

    give them options like:

    - automaticly build (the one it has now)
    - automaticly build around this town (will only focus on the town it's next to, untill the town has full improvement, then it will ask for new orders)
    - automaticly focus on resources (will focus on strategic and lux. resources (especially the ones you don't have yet, instead of first building 4 coton plantations and then take the single ivory like they normally do)
    -focus on gold (makes more trade routes and trading posts)
    - focus on food (will focus on farms, and will prefer tiles next to river if you don't have fertilizing yet)
    - focus on production (focusses on mines and lumber mills)
     
  11. CGG1066

    CGG1066 Minister of Finance

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    Camikaze - thanks for point out the previous thread - I'm new here, and I'm sure a lot of my ideas are already floating around, but I couldn't read everything.

    Nice graphics work, killmeplease. I like the interface idea, but I'd like to have most improvements built automatically when a tile is worked (and the only MM needed is if you wanted to change tiles to adjust your city focus).

    Zimmah - yes, the "work this city only" option is very much missed here (I had 6 workers taken out when I founded a colony, EVERY worker I had pretty much travled around the world at the same time, right next to a barbarian boat - grr...). I do think that by simplifying it any more, there are benefits to game play. You might not agree.
     
  12. killmeplease

    killmeplease Mk Z on Steam

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    improvements may be created automatically when you chose city focus. say an optimization function selects N tiles in city radius to create the best output O1 (e.g. focus is on food). then it sees how great an output O2 could be if all those tiles were farmed. and calculates an economical effect E=(O2-O1)/O1. upon this value it determines how much citizens should be directed to improvement construction works (0, 1, 2 or whatever number calculated).

    it should also improve AI's play, as tile yield optimization is much easier task than managing units on a map.
     
  13. NighthawkCP

    NighthawkCP Chieftain

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    I think the new worker ai does a bit better than the old one. But I do think it's silly that they didn't implement the work nearest city only. I would love to see a mod or expansion fix this. Maybe some sort of ai system that takes into account range to move and can weigh that against improvements needed closer to it instead. If it could have a mathematical way of looking at all the cities and figuring in the cost of traveling into the cost of it producing that improvement, then perhaps the ai could better grasp where it should prioritize, making the improve nearest city unnecessary. But until that time, just let me assign a worker to one city and forget all the other crap.
     
  14. CivMyWay

    CivMyWay Warlord

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    I agree with the OP.
     
  15. Johan de Witt

    Johan de Witt Prince

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    How about... On every tile, within the city screen, you can choose what kind of yield you want; food, hammers or gold. This kind of yield is then improved and after a set amount of turns, your hex improves.

    For example: I have a hill hex on which I can choose the yield. If I decide to choose hammers, after a few turns a mine would appear. If I would've chosen food, you might see sheep pop up after a while and with gold a mill or a vineyard?

    You could even unlock new improvements with certain techs. For example, I chose hammers from a grassland hex and a small village with a workshop appeared... This will not be able to grow any further. Then at a certain time I researched industrialism and the tile starts to grow again. After a few turns, a factory pops and my yield is increased.
     
  16. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Don't worry, it's perfectly fine. I only link to it because I thought people reading this thread might be interested in it. :)

    This would make terrain rather unimportant. As it is now, terrain can only be improved in a certain way, so that some cities won't be able to emphasis food or production or gold. If you give free reign to focus on whatever, then the idea of different terrain types kinda disappears.
     
  17. shattergod

    shattergod Chieftain

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    This suggestion would completely remove workers from the game.

    Think of it like a "reverse" Specialist

    Beneath "Citizen Allocation" or whatever it's called place "Public Works".

    Within the public works will be each type of improvement your empire is capable of producing. Mines, Quarries, farms, whatever. You click and drag the type of improvement you want onto the desired tile. Want a farm? Click and drag a farm onto the desired city tile. It takes some gold out of your coffers and you're all set. want a different improvement on the same tile? Do the same and you replace the old tile.

    Improvements would increase in cost to initially build over the ages so that they stay balanced and to reflect the improvements in technology (Farms cease needing ox and plow adn start needing trac tors and combines, for example).


    In the same overlay would be the option to build a road or railroad to an adjoining city.

    For example, from your capital you would have the option to build a road from Washington to New York. This would cost a set amount of Golds, and once you selected it "poof" a road would appear... because roads shouldn't take generations to create either.

    Fortresses would be "poof' buildings similar to Great Persons, but would require the expenditure of Infantry to create the Fortress.

    Moderator Action: Merged into existing thread discussing the same topic. - Methos
     
  18. Johan de Witt

    Johan de Witt Prince

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    Unless you change it a little bit. For example:
    You can get food, hammers and coins from hills. Food starts at 1 and can be improved to 2, coins start at 0 and can be improved to 1 while hammers start at 2 and can be improved to 4.
    plains start at 1 yield of all, food can be improved to 3, coins to 3 and hammers to 2.

    Just an example.
     
  19. Camikaze

    Camikaze Administrator Administrator

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    Yeah, that would make sense, I guess.

    However, I don't really see what advantages this holds over the current improvement system.
     
  20. snipperrabbit!!

    snipperrabbit!! Deity

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    Trying to refine this ideas :

    What about a process called "infrastructure" that converts prod to public work and enable a public works panel to choose between mine, farm, trade post, ... (ie only one type at a time) and then you free some people to mak them unassigned citizens that you can drag & drop on the city tiles that you want to improve. usefullness must be dependent on prod output (there, the unassigned citizens are still counting 1 prod) and the exchange rate and costs of the public works.
     

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