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Let's make a REAL vassal system.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Creation & Customization' started by Mouthwash, Mar 15, 2013.

  1. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Why can't vassals be realistic? I feel that we should implement a new "vassal policy" mechanic- we should be able to demand a certain amount of their income per turn (their ACTUAL income; not including their expenses, so we should be able to do this even if their income is below zero- all trade should work like this), or perhaps science, specialists, slaves, population, units (the master could demand that they build them if they don't have what it wants), setting unit quotas for their own armies, dictating precisely when they should attack enemy cities (again, this should be done with all war allies), demanding intelligence information, etc. In addition, I think that we could institute "reforms" in their own empire, changing their civics at will and perhaps forcefully putting a certain amount of the master's culture in each of their cities.

    I'm also thinking that there could be a "loyalty meter" in each of the vassal's cities that would dictate how loyal that city would be to us irrelevant of the leader's attitude, with risks such as refusing to cooperate with taxation or revolting. A city revolting would lead to other cities refusing to acknowledge the master's authority and revolting themselves (whereas crushing a revolt will buy you some extra stability), and the vassal's leader might eventually decide to save his empire and withdraw from your vassalship even at the risk of war. And yes, you would have jurisdiction in those cities to send in your units to maintain order without actually annexing them (if you wished to betray your vassal, you could, though). You might even want to keep permanent garrisons there in order to prevent revolts in the first place (although this might have loyalty penalties for that city in the long term).

    Perhaps propaganda buildings (public school, radio towers, monuments) might be constructed in those cities at your orders, which would hurt loyalty initially but improve it over the long run and also increase your culture there. If you had a vassal for long enough and had enough units and resources to enforce your agenda, its cities might decide to join yours, in effect annexing the entire civilization (this is how it's been done plenty of times in history- steady cultural assimilation).

    So my scheme would basically make vassalship what it should be- giving you authority, military and economic strength, and strategic wherewithal without forcing you to conquer anything, but providing the risk of the vassal losing interest, becoming angry, not cooperating, or building up an army large enough to free itself or pose a threat to your own empire if you don't exert enough force over it. That's how it should have been from the beginning; vassals were always a half-baked mechanic in BTS.

    Also, this has nothing to do with vassals, but would there be a way to stop culture from disappearing immediately after a civilization is conquered, creating temporary unhappiness and a risk of reemergence?

    What do you think about all this?
     
  2. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    I did not spell check this, by the way. Got too lazy after all that.
     
  3. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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    I think it is intersting. A lot of these mechanics are kind of already in the vassal system. I have been working a little bit on making a standalone from Total War. Total War has several types of vassals such as Dominion, Protectorate, Colony, Free City, & Puppet. It is difficult to merge because the code is somewhat altered. There are several modifiers that kind of do what you are asking.
     
  4. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    The only TW games I've played is RTW vanilla and EB. Neither of them have any vassal system, so I assume it came in a later game. But what relevance does that have to Civilization IV?
     
  5. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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  6. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Ohhhhhh. :) :lol:
     
  7. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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  8. Isabelxxx

    Isabelxxx DoaNE Explorer

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    @stolenrays:
    I could help you in anything you wanna if you upload the source code :)
     
  9. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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    Awesome Isabel. I'm really intersted in completing & releasing the advanced vassals from Total War.

    I've included the standalone work I've already done. Let me know what your thoughts are, etc.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    I downloaded that but it doesn't appear to affect anything. I also have no idea what the TW mod does (the site doesn't work for me).
     
  11. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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    The attachment doesn't do anything yet, because it is not functional.

    Here is what the new vassals do:

    Spoiler :

    Annexed territory (requires Fascism)
    Spoiler :
    +1 in the vassal's cities
    Additional costs for the master: high
    Gift to the master probabilities level: 100%
    Vassal emancipation requires the equivalent of 50% of the master's territory size
    Vassal emancipation requires the equivalent of 50% of the master's demographic level
    The vassal can emancipate is he lost at least 50% of his territory after signing the agreement
    The vassal can emancipate if the addition of his territory and his master's one were reduced under 50%
    The vassal can put an ultimatum after a conflict with: Marxism
    No fog of war on the vassal's territory for the master
    The vassal's territory is "friendly territory" for master's units
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have its Holy City
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have chosen it as his State Religion
    The master can train the Unique Unit of the vassal
    Shared resources, Shared monopolies (managed by the master)
    The master pays vassal's International Taxes
    The vassal votes at master's Universal Suffrage
    The vassal gives his international votes if the master have chosen the Universal Suffrage civic
    The vassal doesn't have the right to propose his cities for trade with other players
    Frozen borders between the vassal and the master (the continue to be spread)
    Wars and peace managed by the master
    The annexed territory is a status of vassalage which includes high interdependence links with the master, but also more emancipation opportunities.

    Colony (requires Compass)
    Spoiler :
    +1 in the master's cities
    Additional costs for the master: normals
    Gift to the master probabilities level: 150%
    The vassal can emancipate if the addition of his territory and his master's one were reduced under 50%
    No fog of war on the vassal's territory for the master
    The vassal's territory is "friendly territory" for master's units
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have its Holy City
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have chosen it as his State Religion
    The master can train the Unique Unit of the vassal
    The vassal's resources are inevitably all availables for trade with the master
    The vassal doesn't have the right to propose his cities for trade with other players
    Wars and peace managed by the master
    Convertible in: Annexed territory, Dominion
    Can't be traded with an existing player
    The colony is a status of vassalage which result from the secession (organized by the master) of some cities far away the capital

    Dominion (requires Democracy)
    Spoiler :
    Additional costs for the master: low
    Vassal emancipation requires the equivalent of 50% of the master's territory size
    Vassal emancipation requires the equivalent of 50% of the master's demographic level
    The vassal can emancipate is he lost at least 75% of his territory after signing the agreement
    The vassal can emancipate if the addition of his territory and his master's one were reduced under 50%
    The vassal can put an ultimatum after a conflict with: Democracy
    No fog of war on the vassal's territory for the master
    The vassal's territory is "friendly territory" for master's units
    The master can train the Unique Unit of the vassal
    The vassal can lead separed wars
    The Dominion is a status of vassalage, which let some leeway to the colonized people, preventing in some contexts, a paralysis of the country which remains an ally

    Protectorate (requires Polyarchy)
    Spoiler :
    +1 in the master's cities
    +1 in the vassal's cities
    Additional costs for the master: normals
    Gift to the master probabilities level: 50%
    No fog of war on the vassal's territory for the master
    The vassal's territory is "friendly territory" for master's units
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have its Holy City
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have chosen it as his State Religion
    The master can train the Unique Unit of the vassal
    The vassal's resources are inevitably all availables for trade with the master
    Wars and peace managed by the master
    Signers must be in peace
    The protectorate is a negotiated status of vassalage, signed by two people who feel close and, above all, have a common military interest

    Puppet State (requires Feudalism)
    Spoiler :
    +1 in the master's cities
    +1 in the vassal's cities
    Additional costs for the master: normals
    Gift to the master probabilities level: 75%
    Vassal emancipation requires the equivalent of 50% of the master's territory size
    Vassal emancipation requires the equivalent of 50% of the master's demographic level
    The vassal can emancipate is he lost at least 50% of his territory after signing the agreement
    The vassal can emancipate if the addition of his territory and his master's one were reduced under 50%
    No fog of war on the vassal's territory for the master
    The vassal's territory is "friendly territory" for master's units
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have its Holy City
    The vassal can't drive out a religion if the master have chosen it as his State Religion
    The master can train the Unique Unit of the vassal
    The vassal's resources are inevitably all availables for trade with the master
    Wars and peace managed by the master
    Signers must be in conflict
    Convertible in: Annexed territory, Dominion
    The Puppet State is a defeated nation which transfer a part of its sovereignty, constrained by a very unbalanced peace treaty
     
  12. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Wow... I just looked at that "Total War mod"... it has a lot of systems and content that no one else appears to have... even C2C.
     
  13. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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  14. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    Yeah, it seems to have developed totally separately from the mainstream (Revolutions, RoM, etc).
     
  15. Isabelxxx

    Isabelxxx DoaNE Explorer

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    @stolenrays

    Thanks, revising it now. I found one thing in CvCity.cpp, I will continue with the rest. I will let you know as soon as I finish.

    EDIT: That source code is from an old version of BTS, should I port it to the actual version or you just want me to revise the Total War code?
     
  16. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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    I was in the process of merging it with BTS code, but didn't do it yet/had some problems. It is up to you what you want to do. If it is re-commented, I can merge it myself. The code is still kind of funky though in that case & doesn't match BTS.

    I'll take a look at the xml or python stuff. Let me know what files may be needed if not in there. I have the complete downloaded mod.

    I also have plans to add a few more types of client states (neo-colony, Tributary, & Satellite).

    Isabel is the greatest!
     
  17. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    If the differences could be generalised into XML or "modular" Python it would allow for yet more types of client states.:drool:
     
  18. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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    @Dancing. The vassals are delineated in a new .xml file called VassalInfos.xml . There are tons of new tags to tweak it with so yes, you can create whatever new one you want. In addition, Puppet States is basically Capitulation renamed. There is an option to create a free city upon conquest. It is kind of like a colony I think and is part of your civ.
     
  19. stolenrays

    stolenrays Deity

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  20. mourndraken

    mourndraken King

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    After many years playing BTS, I finally figured out how to end a vassal agreement ! I'm sure that every player has accepted an AI as a vassal, only to eventually regret it when their land becomes strategic and desired. There is no way to cancel this agreement by cancellation like we can do with open borders, for example.

    Today, I found a way !

    My armies were attacking a city, but managed to only severely weaken it. My vassal also had a stack and took the city and vassaled our foe. So I declared war on my vassal's vassal and my vassal renounced my protection and became independent.

    So the game can end a vassal agreement. It would be great if these types of diplomatic agreement could be ended in a more direct way IMHO.
     

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