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Let's name and analyze all the viable Deity rushes

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by JamesCivFan, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    As the title says, I'd like to see all the viable rushes the player can do on Deity, to hit an AI, through all the eras. Which units are (in general) worth it to rush for, build about 6-12 of them, depending on how late it is and take on an AI.

    So far, I mostly know up to Medieval era rushes. I still haven't tried late game unit ones like the good old Stealth Bomber on turn 190 rush on vanilla (which was super deadly, but it got nerfed in G&K).

    I'll start with the first few that I know are worth it:
    1) Composite Bowman rush, pretty easy to do, you mainly just beeline to Construction, being there on about turn 60, building about 7 CB, having about 3 cities, taking out an AI neighbor before they can even react. That is of course, after researching at least one luxury tech, for money. In my experience, 7 CB, along with a Great General, can take out up to a 23-24 defense AI capital. Pretty viable for warmongering neighbors like Attila, or Monty. Just don't forget to bring in a melee unit, to capture the city.

    2)Swordsman rush. This is one is somewhat trickier to perform, as you have to be lucky to have iron in your neighborhood. Plus, in G&K, Iron Working is much more expensive than in vanilla. Tech path should be to go for one luxury tech before starting the long research to IW, so you can get more money for upgrades. Of course, having Mining based luxuries to sell is always a lot more plausible than the rest of them.

    3) In the medieval era, there is the Longsword rush, which is to be at Steel by turn 95-100. The tech path that worked the best for me was to go to 3 cities, get the NC on turn 68-70, with tradition (big capital and aristocracy really help). Obviously, Civs like Japan will be even better with this one, because of their samurais. Again, you should have plenty of iron nearby (at least 8, in my experience), and start gathering lots of money as it costs 100 gold, just to upgrade a swordsman to a Longsword.

    4) Crossbow rush. Same concept as the Longsword one, except you don't need Iron. China gets a benefit with this one, due to their UU.

    5) Chivalrly rush. This one, in my opinion should only be used with civs that have a UU which replaces the Knight (haven't really tried a regular Knight rush yet). Arabia, Songhai, Spain come to mind for this one. The better aspect of this, is that you don't skip Civil Service, actually, you beeline for it right after Philosophy, so you let your cities get the food bonus from river tiles earlier than the other medieval rushes.

    I'm waiting for later era rushes, since I still am pretty clueless on how to perform these.
     
  2. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    post GnK i've done Bowman rush with Hammy, and it worked pretty well, because in early era defence units and :c5combat: of cities are lower, and Bowman needs much less money/production/tech to power the rush compared to CB

    Then you have Greek Companion cavalry, i am pretty sure you could smash some cities up with it, through i didnt tried it on deity
     
  3. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Yes, these UU ones might work just as well! I am trying to point out the regular unit ones first. But I'd love to see them all listed in one big thread. Did you try the Bowman rush on Deity? How many did you need to take out the AI capital (if you took it)?
     
  4. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    I've managed to take 2 of 3 (xcept capital) cities from William, also i was attacked from other side by Sweden, so i stopped just before capital, because needed to withdraw units to other side. I had 2 cities and no place to settle more. I had like 5 bowmans, scout and spearmen (hut upgraded warrior), and 1 cat at end. Yes, it was deity. Early cities have quite low combat strength, and highter CS of bowmans helps.
     
  5. Sorin

    Sorin Chieftain

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    Don't take this personal but, i don't understand why you call it a rush because the AI will probably have the same units or their era equivalent. You either go to war or you don't. This really depends on:
    - the civ you are playing
    - the neighbours you have
    - the position of your empire on the map
    - the way you want to win the game
    Thus, i will point out what you must have when going to war in different eras:
    a) ancient:
    - 4 to 6 ranged combat (archers or chariot archers - these are even better because you can scout out enemy units)
    - 3 to 4 melee units for archer cover - medic promotion is mandatory (preferably spearman for its extra hp)
    b) classical:
    - horseman - march promotion mandatory (excelent for scouting out enemy units)
    - ranged combat
    - 2 to 3 catapults (if enemy cities have walls, catapults are a must)
    - 3 to 4 melee units for ranged cover
    c) medieval:
    - all of the above and the most important - trebuches (catapults will be 1 shotted)
    d) renaissance:
    - cannons, lots of them
    e) industrial
    - artillery - most notable unit

    After industrial, you should be able to control your continent.

    Also, build citadels in key points to create a good defence against other civs that see you as a threat. Building such citadels allows you to bring more units on the front line.

    Before thinking of taking the city, you must clear the enemy units first. You can do this by positioning yourself so that your units can destroy 1 enemy in 1 turn without taking too much damage. Also, before you move in for the kill, scout the area with a mobile unit so you can decide whether it is safe to attack or not. Protect your units and never let them die. Always scout ahead before you move.

    My experience is based on the following settings:
    - diety
    - marathon
    - continents
    - large
    - multiplayer with 1 friend, the rest being AI (played only once on single player)
     
  6. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    You could do with less units. Also i've started Offence wars after few eras of defensive teching in industrial from my own 3 cities and were able to finish anyone by information, esp if you talking about marathon.
     
  7. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    First of all, welcome to the forum.

    A *said unit* rush, is usually when the player beelines to *said tech*, when the AI target probably doesn't have that unit yet, in order to overcome its bonuses and get a few cities/almost completely annihilate it. At least, that's what people call a "rush". Also, I have to disagree with your point that the AI will have the said units like you in every era. If you beeline the right techs on the right time, you can actually get ahead of the AI, at least in terms of units temporarily, giving you the upper hand.

    That's for example why the CB rush works. The AI is still at spearmen, archers and if you're unlucky, Swordsmen. Your CB gives you this extra edge you need to overtake the AI before it gets to CB itself.
     
  8. Sorin

    Sorin Chieftain

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    i agree with you that you can do it with less units, but you will sometimes need to use the promotion for heal - which i rarely do (exceptions to this: the unit is a veteran - medic 2, range, logistics and so forth). The main reason is that i build a 6-7 unit veteran taskforce that enables me to defend, upgrade and then attack again.

    i see warfare as a cycle:
    1. build units, attack, promote them, conquer
    2. get necessary buildings, workers and infrastructure
    3. enter next age, upgrade, build a few units to protect veterans and attack
     
  9. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    I don't play Deity that much, mostly because I cannot find enjoyment in dealing with the AI cranking out like 6 units per turn and spamming them, but I've had success with some strategies like archer rushes, a few UU pushes(namely Caroleans), and just plain old Artillery. However, one thing I still can't get to work is the sword rush. I've tried a few times as the Iroquois and by the time I get in around turn 50-55s, the AI usually at least has Composites and Spears, if not their own Swords, and they can chip enough at you that you can't take their capital or even sometimes their second city if they get Walls up. On top of that, you end up quite far behind in tech later on. Not quite sure what I'm missing.
     
  10. Slvynn

    Slvynn Duke Vector fon Pixel

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    Said thing working well only with simultaneous science development (not actual IW beeline) and accompanied with CBs.... The good thing about Mohawks that you could just upgrade any warrior amounts into them if you have enough gold, as soon as IW aviable.
     
  11. Sorin

    Sorin Chieftain

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    James, thank you for your welcome.

    I must agree we disagree :)

    Firstly, i told you that "AI will probably have the same units or their era equivalent" which means that if you have knights, it will probably have LS or viceversa. Not to mention that in 80% of the games i played i was behind in tech until late Renaissance. Maybe because of the way i play explained in the post above. If you have a different strategy, i would be glad to hear it.

    Secondly, i thaught on the idea of "rush" and the only unit that came to my mind was the cannon. Until then, only veterans will give you the upper hand.
     
  12. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak R.I.P.

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    Infantry ''rush'' :

    Just go for Plastics as fast as possible. 70 :c5strength: is a huge gap even at deity when you really beeline it. You can easily fight 30-35 :c5strength: units and laugh while advancing.

    Artillery ''rush'' + (great war infantry) :

    Same than artillery. With a fast beeline you will get a nice advantage for many turns to come. But you may also need stronger melee units.

    Best way to get there(both path) : Get Public schools. Sign 3-4 RAs 22 turns before finishing 2 or 3 PBs. Burn gs if needed.

    I did 1 game with a late rush and got artillery and GWI before turn 180 and could beat the strongest deity civ...and pretty easily.
     
  13. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    I will try that. I have never tried to get to an Industrial era or even more advanced era unit. I usually rush neighbors with CB, or if I can be at peace for the first 90 turns, I usually do a longsword or crossbow rush. I am in the middle of an England game. I want to test these Longbows and how deadly is their 3 range sight. I guess next time I'll pick a civ with an Industrial era unit replacement, and try that out, or go to artillery.

    PS. When target neighbor suddenly builds the GW what do you do? Pick another target?
     
  14. EDP

    EDP His Pixelyness

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    OP: What you're basically saying is that beelining any of the non-ancient and non-weakness-having (like the horseman, knight (unless UU), catapult, etc) is a strategy on Diety?
     
  15. TandooriChicken

    TandooriChicken Chieftain

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    It's actually an interesting thread whether you call it "rushes" or just "era-appropriate military strategy". I would define "rush" as beelining a military tech, building multiple units from that tech, and attacking as soon as possible in hopes of catching the AI with numerically or technologically limited defenses. There is always a cost-benefit, though, as units cost hammers/money that could be used for infrastructure.

    I have been playing a lot as the Celts lately and have found the Pictish Warrior to be reasonably rush-friendly... The pillage ability doesn't come in that handy since the AI often doesn't have a lot of great improvements to pillage, but it is free! The bonus outside friendly territory is nice, and the faith doesn't hurt. Generally six PWs are enough to capture non-capital AI cities even at deity as long as they can be surrounded in one turn. Often, the AI will then squander much of its military trying to recapture the city, allowing you to then surround their capital or just wait and eat units until you can bring up some ranged support to attack the capital. I have defeated multiple deity AIs with a force of 4-6 PWs and 2-3 archers. You just need favorable terrain and to get going EARLY (so it is a "rush!").
     
  16. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Sometimes yes. It gives you an opening towards the enemy, so you can go on the offensive and capture a few of their cities. Other times, depending on the map and your surroundings, there is no need to invest money into military units.
     
  17. Sorin

    Sorin Chieftain

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    here you can find my only single player game the game. as you will see, you can take the player having the great wall, but you need to be slick :). check out the citadel that allowed me to take the city within one turn. Austria was bombarding Shanghai and left it at 2-3 hp so i declared war and took the city with 1 (one) battering ram (stole it from austria from under her nose). Of course after that Maria DOWed me and launched all her forces towards Shanghai (counted 15 to 19 units). They all died at the hand of veteran CB, horse archers and 1 (one) sword with medic 2. She attacked me with LS, KN, CrossB, but i resisted because of my veteran troops and Shanghai's GW. after i upgraded to Crossb (had range and logistics - check out the gatling gun from unit list) and cannons i was able to take her down easily. Now i got the whole continent for myself so i can build the infrastructure and try to find an easy victory. If you have any advice i will gladly listen.
     
  18. JamesCivFan

    JamesCivFan King

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    Thank you all for the replies. @Sorin,

    The GW is an amazing wonder! Good job on capturing it like that. It definitely makes your life easier when you want to defend, and it's very difficult to capture it, unless you either wait for artillery, or perform some sort of quick trick, like you did. I will download your file. Is it a replay? A save? One last thing I have heard, is that on marathon you have more time to gather units, so that makes it slightly easier. I have never tried marathon though. Too long for me.

    @Everyone. Thanks for the suggestions. Ideally, we could make a list on what's the better tech path to get to an appropriate unit in each era in order to attack.
     
  19. Sorin

    Sorin Chieftain

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    sorry, my bad... here are 2 saves so you can see what happened the saves. GW i was kind of forced to capture it because Austria was cutting me off if it got it. Yes on marathon you got more time but, so does the AI. At one point, Shanghai was surrounded by 10-12 Austrian units and i stayed 10 mins at that turn thinking what to attack. I barely managed to keep it because of the sheer numbers and technologically advanced units. My advantage was the GW and the veteran taskforce.
     
  20. Light Cleric

    Light Cleric ElCee/LC/El Cid

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    Well, I was attempting the suicide version where you beeline to IW. Does that not work in G&K? I never really cared for it much in vanilla either(mostly because I NEVER got Iron) so I didn't use it but I wanted to try something different.
     

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