Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

WastinTime

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Deity BC Space

You read that right. I'm attempting to show every detail on the way to a Deity BC (pre-1AD) Spaceship Launch! No promises, but my goal is actually to aim for a BC spaceship landing :eek: I only say BC launch so the title will still be correct even if I come up a bit short.

I plan to submit it to the HoF, so I'll adhere to their rules/restrictions, and I'm not allowed to upload any saves until it's over.

Status:
Game in progress... edit : Game complete!
On Sept 10: turn 7. Yes, I'm already promising that one (or both) of these games will achieve BC Space launch! (can't promise this early they're good enough to get BC landing)
If you've joined me late, see post #2 :Table of Contents for links to the important stuff and current progress.

History
Obviously on Marathon, that translates to T349 launch or an unbelievable T319 launch & T349 arrival/game won. I usually talk in turn numbers. Turn 319 is...I have to look it up...310BC. T349 I know is 10BC since T350 is 1 AD. For comparison, my best Space ever was:
T440, 700 AD Standard, Deity which stood for over 2 years and is still the fastest standard game ever in the HoF.

Last year, the current best ever HoF Deity Space was achieved by Seraiel in the Major Gauntlet #137, aka GM-137. With win turns of: T439 by Seraiel and T441 by Kaitzilla. (695AD and 705AD.) See what having a target of T440 does?

"Shaving off" 60 turns (or possibly 90 turns) from the best game ever sounds crazy :crazyeye:, and I've been called that before.
For the High Score Gauntlet, GM-144, I developed a new, game-breaking economy (details coming soon) that has allowed me to research at speeds never seen before and get over 10 million score. That game played a lot like Space for the first 280 turns or so--essentially a race to corporations. Until GM-144, the best ever date was T315 (350 BC) Sushi Corp.
While still working out the kinks in my new economy, targeting T299, I got that date down to T281 (690 BC) sushi. I would expect to cut 10-20 turns off that in the future now that I have an appropriate target date. As you'll read, having proper targets allows you to properly plan and set new records.

The Start (actually starts-plural)

Feel free to post which you prefer or where you'd settle, but you probably want me to move the Quechua first. They're both pretty similar and unspectacular until you see more.

Option #1: Note: there is a Hut NW of the settler. Not sure why it's so hard to see in this image.



Settled:
Spoiler :

Option #2:

View Image here



Q moved:
Game Setup
Huayna Capac
Large (not Huge), Marathon, Big & Small (not flat, Terra!). Low seas.
Max # of opponents (14 allowed for HoF)
Aggressive AI
No barbarians

Why?
Spoiler :
Real quickly:
Large is large enough to get a giant empire where Standard is a tight fit and fewer opponents.
Research is 7-8% cheaper than Huge size.

Big&Small: allows for many more cities in the ocean and sushi resources too. It's easy to pick up Mining resources on the islands without tripping the Domination limit. I decided this is all more important than the ability to do Terra with Flat worldwrap which reduces distance costs.
Agg AI (game option, not leader trait): Makes the AI agree to Cease Fire very quickly (mainly for repeated worker stealing)

update: I should mention that since this is destined for the HoF, I use the BUFFY mod--which is not supposed to affect gameplay.
That's laughable, since I just learned that survival during the entire first 1/3 of the game relies on overflow gold which doesn't work without BUFFY.
 
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WastinTime

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Contents

Warrior Rush on Deity (for non-Inca)
How I use mapfinder
Early Game Research Plan (t0 ~T120)
Early Game, Stage I checklist Is this map HoF worthy?
Selecting Opponents
Reduce worker-turn waste
Teleporting
Road Planning
:devil: Surviving pre-Alphabet Time for some dirty tricks!
Comparing progress @ Alphabet
Better comparison at T115
Planning for a GE for Mining (already)
:devil: Wonder Bread Economy (WBE)
:devil: Example of Wonder Bread planning for Oracle
+Diplo using resources
List of relevant Wonders and what turn they're built
Planning Settlers for the GP Plan
Mid Game Research Plan
GP Plan Part I
Golden Age Brainstorming
Buildings and Wonders destroyed/kept when cities change hands (thx @Dhoom)
I figure out how to guarantee a 100% Great Engineer without building Pyramids
Planning the War across the Ocean
Tech Trade thresholds i.e. AI will trade a tech when X% of other AI know it.
Kaitzilla breaks Civ with a space parts building tactic. After discussion, it's so good (meaning bad) that it will get banned and I won't use it.
:devil: Increasing the domination limit. More land for me. :devil: More on AI vassals
is WBE dead mid-game? or no, just weakened?
:devil: End Game STRIKE Strategy :devil:
Corporation Expenses/Maintenance
Beginning of the End Early End Game re-design
Early Kremlin/State Property Plan. An alternate way I might play space race one day.
Rushing final space parts
Mixing Railroads and Roads explained by Mitchum.
:devil: Complete Guide to Building Space Parts :devil:
:devil: Leave STRIKE economy and revert to conventional?

Turnsets:


StoneFish Start

T0-T7: goody huts
T8-T69 3 cities, Wheel, BW, Pottery

MarbleStart
T0-T7: deja vu
T8-T23: Worker steals and nearby AI. Teleporting. Cash for events. Worker turn efficiency. End with Mining.
T24-T35-T39 Still pre-war worker hunting and exploring. Spying on AI builds. Planning first war(s)
Overview of entire MarbleStart Map + more roading plans for trade routes.
T40-T89 Capturing the SW.
T89-T94 Orleans. Time to move east.
T95-T104 Berlin, move army to Justin.
T105-T115 Justin. Alphabet. Time to shift to the new Economy
T116-T129 Stone. Suleiman. Justin again for Priesthood. Marble.
T130 Great Lighthouse plan
T132 Wonder Bread/Oracle Plan (also has Hanging Gardens/Mids plans)
Planning Settlers for the GP Plan
T132-141 Great Lighthouse and Great Wall. Cleanup Ottomans.
T141-148 Lincoln war. Oracle. MetalCasting & Currency
Overview of coastal cities and specific plans for Colossus in each. Lots of pictures :cool:
T149-160 Machinery
T160-170 Aes, Literature, Colossus
T171- 178 Music, Hanging Gardens
-- Need to stop and do major planning. It's overwhelming and I took a 7 month break. --
GP Plan part II
Planning Mid Game
T179-196 Random events. Construction. HBR. Engineering. Moai. ToA failgold. War on Peter
T197-215 2nd War on Peter, Calendar, Feudal, Guilds, Banking. Wonders and quests.
Final GP detailed plan
T215-T226 Golden Age! Rep/Bureau/Caste/Merc/Pacifism (no slavery :()
CoL, CivilService, Paper, Education, PrintingPress, (some Philo--don't ask)
Whip plan (for t238 - 243) then some Major re-planning in the subsequent posts.
Whip Plan Take II (for t238 - 243)
T226-232 Philo, Roosevelt-check
T233-245 SlaveryWindow. Nationalism, Chemistry. Dutch-check
246-251 ReplaceableParts, Vicky-check (Zeus for SportsLeague quest)
Planning Late-Mid-Game : Research, IronWorks, Corporations, National Park
Exec Spread Plan
T252-??? Steam Power (levees, coal!, fast workers) Mansa war.
Whip plan to OF into Execs TBD (need forges, levees, settlers, and 9 colosseums)
Many plans were set and then adapted, resuming play after (another) long break...
T258-269 - Steel, Econ, Constitution, Corporation, Liberalism, Railroad! Mining Inc!
T271-284 - STRIKE, Sushi (SciMethod, Compass, Biology, Optics, Medicine)
T284-289 - AssemblyLine
T290-294 - Dark age whipping factory/coal. Missionary Gold Plan
T295-303 Final War: Liz
T304-310 Physics, Electricity, Radio, Rifling, Artillery
T311-315 Industrialism, Rocketry, Combustion, Plastics
T316-329 Launch!
T330-359 90 AD Victory (10-15 posts cover this turnset), 4.3 million score
 
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nate46

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One time I was bored so i made a tier list of civ IV faction leaders. I decided to put huayna capac two tiers above everyone else. I doubt anything that happens in this thread will make me reconsider that.

But eitherway, if you pull this off i'll be very impressed. :D
 

WastinTime

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One time I was bored so i made a tier list of civ IV faction leaders. I decided to put huayna capac two tiers above everyone else. I doubt anything that happens in this thread will make me reconsider that.

Well, the current 695 AD record is with Darius. I feel I could get a BC launch with Liz as well. It's just so hard to live without the Terrace (+2 culture) in the early game.
 

nate46

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Well, the current 695 AD record is with Darius. I feel I could get a BC launch with Liz as well. It's just so hard to live without the Terrace (+2 culture) in the early game.

...lol, how would this even work without an OP early unique unit? Doing this with liz has got to be 100 times as impressive as HC or Darius. What do you do, horse archer rush until you hit 20 cities or so? or is axe better?
 

Bandobras Took

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...lol, how would this even work without an OP early unique unit? Doing this with liz has got to be 100 times as impressive as HC or Darius. What do you do, horse archer rush until you hit 20 cities or so? or is axe better?

He described this as an epiphany; I'm not sure it'll be anything so mundane as a Horse Archer rush that makes the real difference. :)
 

nate46

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Feel free to post which you prefer or where you'd settle

anyway... for maximum HC cheese, aren't you supposed to move the settler, and then settle right next to an AI? since the settler runs faster than an army of quechas, you can attack faster that way, assuming you're actually going in the correct direction.

of course it would be tricky coming up with a map where you have an amazing cap spot that's right next to the AI's cap spot...
 

nate46

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He described this as an epiphany; I'm not sure it'll be anything so mundane as a Horse Archer rush that makes the real difference. :)

if his epiphany shaves more turns off of a space victory than the speed difference between an axe/horse rush and a quecha rush, i'll be seriously super impressed. I wonder what it is...

P.S. ignore my banter in this thread, i'm just an immortal player i don't know what i'm talking about, lol... I'm sure wastintime will show me up, soon...
 

Bandobras Took

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if his epiphany shaves more turns off of a space victory than the speed difference between an axe/horse rush and a quecha rush, i'll be seriously super impressed. I wonder what it is...

P.S. ignore my banter in this thread, i'm just an immortal player i don't know what i'm talking about, lol... I'm sure wastintime will show me up, soon...

Difficulty level often turns out to be a poor indication of whether a given person knows what they're talking about or not. :lol:
 

WastinTime

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...lol, how would this even work without an OP early unique unit? Doing this with liz has got to be 100 times as impressive as HC or Darius. What do you do, horse archer rush until you hit 20 cities or so? or is axe better?

Early rush would likely be Axe or Chariot with Liz.
But don't forget Warriors! Works well to get Copper or Horse and a nice AI city.
:devil: Hot Tip: Warrior rush on Deity. Take a stack of say, 10-12 warriors. Expect to lose about 6-8 taking an AI capital (not on a hill).
8 warriors only cost 240:hammers:. Less than a settler. And I'm sure you'll pick up a free worker or two along the way.
 

nate46

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Early rush would likely be Axe or Chariot with Liz.
But don't forget Warriors! Works well to get Copper or Horse and a nice AI city.
:devil: Hot Tip: Warrior rush on Deity. Take a stack of say, 10-12 warriors. Expect to lose about 6-8 taking an AI capital (not on a hill).

i think i tried this once on emperor difficulty... all 10 warriors died, killed zero archers... I blame the RNG. :lol:
 

georgjorge

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I'll follow this thread a lot. It seems like a good opportunity to similarly learn a lot about the game and get that sweet feeling of humiliation when you realise that what you thought the limits of the game are actually not even close to that.

Regarding the start: Didn't you find any start with double Gold AND some food resource in addition to Floodplains?
 

AbsintheRed

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WastinTime

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Regarding the start: Didn't you find any start with double Gold AND some food resource in addition to Floodplains?

Yes, before I chose these two starts, I played them both a bit and found some nice food and goody huts. I didn't want to waste everyone's time with false starts (just mine.) So you'll see some good 'luck' here which isn't really luck at all. I only tell mapfinder to show me double commerce starts. Then I play them and see if the food is there too. The corn-gold-gold starts I tried didn't look good--often no river which is almost a requirement, especially for Space. Sometimes the three resources can't all fit into the BFC, etc.
But because I'd rather have a free tech like Mining, I've had to play games with only Floodplains. For this game, I'll hold out for a granary resource.
 

DrCron

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This looks great. Unfortunately I can't load the image for option 2 after the quechua moved. Anyone else having the same issue?

On the 1st start you have stone and HC is IND, so.... Pyramids?

Also, if I'm following your reasoning correctly, you got the start with many floodplains instead of a start with great food (aka wet corn) because FIN leader and long term thinking for SP victory, right? Also I guess you won't whip so much if you need such a great commerce output so early in the game?
 

WastinTime

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StoneStart Turnset T0 - T7

:devil: Hot tip: before moving the Q, SIP might actually seem like an ok site. Don't settle where you auto-pop a hut unless you really like the spot. You can never get a tech from a hut before your capital is settled.

T0: Cows revealed. I plan to settle S or SE to get the cows. (I forgot to take a screenshot before I settled, so no time to discuss the options after cows...)
I want the most chances to get a granary resource. I choose SE since there are more un-revealed tiles and I'm only giving up Wine.
Doh! There's a Rice which would have been in my BFC had I chose to settle 1S.
In hindsight, I wish I had settled 1S to include the wine and extra river tiles.
I did have the option of settling there on T1. Losing 1 turn wouldn't be so bad, but I see that I do get Stone earlier, so maybe I can adapt my game and put that to use. It's a rare opportunity and comes with the burden of self-researching Masonry, so we'll see how useful it is in the end. My choice does have better early hammers, but I'll be missing those grass-river-workshops later :(

I 'rush' one quechua. It'll be 10 turns since I only have 3 hammers. After this one, I plan to grow.

:devil:Hot tip: I select 'no tech'. Just in case I pop a free tech from a hut.
There is also a small chance you can get an extra beaker by waiting until T4 to commit to a tech if you meet enough AI that have that tech.
Warning: you must pick a tech before T5 or the game picks one for you.

T1: Q enters the village and recruits a scout.

T2
: Scout robs the village of 156 gold.
T3
T4
T5
: AI met.
Spoiler :
Mansa! :mad:

Our first bit of bad news. We don't want to find Mansa so close to us. We don't want to worker steal from him (because of tech trading) and we don't want to fight his Skirmishers.
:devil: Hot Tip: Put EPs on Mansa as soon as you meet him. We want to know what he's researching ASAP so we can coordinate.

T6: Roosevelt met.

T7: Both units approach huts. I'd prefer not to see any discussion on the merits of goody huts. :deadhorse:
I almost always re-roll a new map (or use mapfinder) until I get a useful tech. There's no more luck involved than rolling 2 gold+great food starts.
If I didn't get a tech, we wouldn't be looking at this map right now.
Village:
Spoiler :

Not really a critical tech, but I would call it useful. You get an extra 20% beakers for Pottery, and it's likely I'll work a lake (2f3c) or coastal tile. Workboats maybe too along with AI-fishnets already in place :drool:. I'll have to keep an eye out for that.
Otherwise I might not see Fishing until after the AI gets Alphabet.
The techs I really wanted to see were Mining or The Wheel.
Animal Husbandry is useful too (cows, reveals Horse, 20% tech boost on Writing)
Hunting would be crap.

Village:
Spoiler :


I can see 3 gold and 6 gems now. (all 6 gems in jungle :()
Roosevelt culture spotted East of his 2nd, NE Scout. Also jungle.



I may have to refer to this as my StoneFish Start so I don't forget I have fishing in the game and maybe not the other. Note to self: Adapt plans to target seafood AI.
Not a lot of fishing revealed so far

All the beakers I put into Mining are wasted, but I'm not upset.
Research set to The Wheel
 
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