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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    This is interesting! When you first said "WB-economy" my first thought (after world builder :p) was wonder building. But then I thought it's such a well known strategy already that it's probably not that. I've been using failgold plenty of times to keep slider at 100% at all times, but mainly in cultural games with smaller empires and way smaller expenses, and in those games I also want to complete a lot of wonders. It didn't occur to me that you could re-evaluate all production in the game and push this to an extreme to make that much more money.

    It was mentioned in the G-Major thread that you can also complete national wonders for failgold, then gift away the city with the national wonder to start the process all over again. Is this something you are planning to do, and which national wonders are good candidates for this? Later ones like Hermitage are quite obvious, but which early national wonders would you rather gift away to build again than keep for the benefit?
     
  2. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Not really three times as powerful. You also need to pay upkeep three times as many turns, so you need three times as much gold. I have a feeling it should scale quite well to faster game speeds.

    I think the key in Shakabrade's post is "I don't really have large empires". With a smaller empire it's not that hard to keep slider up and bpt becomes the limiting factor. I assume WastinTime is aiming to have 100 cities pretty soon, in which case keeping the slider up requires some more effort and high bpt comes automatically from working so many tiles/specialists and trade routes.
     
  3. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    First,I am oversimplifying, like always and just want to make a vague picture of the general difference between game speeds.

    Yes, it scales and I didn't mean 3 times as powerful but really only what I said. You can shuffle wonder production through the cities 3 times as much, you can whip 3 times faster on Marathon once you get the pop (if you accumulated some pop). Also, units on Marathon are CHEAPER which translates to you putting that OF into wonders more often (more food goes to wonder compared to normal speed). It is very hard to calculate real scale factor of this strategy for normal speed as we don't only have different costs, food bins and movement speeds, but also different opportunity costs. On normal speed, you are losing on unit deployment or some other not easily quantifiable yet important stuff. 1T on Normal = 3T on Marathon. On Normal your units are effectively slower or your window of opportunity narrower. You always have something important to build. I often don't even get to build a single Courthouse, let alone a wonder for failgold in the distant future. But if I manage to get more than 20 cities by 1AD, gpt will become a huge problem while on the other hand I will have enough production for new units and cities for committing to failgold building. Actually, this is something that I have seen people doing and have done myself in the past when games went that well (extremely rare).

    So, my question is, how come you marathon guys only do it now?! Ha, didn't expect that twist, haven't you? :D :D:p
     
  4. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    If anything three times is an understatement.

    You get three times as much hammers from whipping/chopping so that gives you three times the money which puts you equal to normal speed. Then you can put hammers into the wonder three times more often whih makes it three times as powerful.

    And then units costs relativey less which could make a bigger portion of you hammers overflow hammers.
     
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    For Shaka, i was partly using the famous wonder bread economy in that Boudi gotm ;)
    I think you wondered ;) a bit how i paid for rushing everybody, besides capture & currency gold i usually did put OF & chops into wonders (mainly Aesthetics ones).

    Even with "just" 200% and no Ind, it's creating a nice safety net and allows to keep fighting at all times without worrying too much. It's kind of fun looking at cities, and deciding where do i build more units, how do i get that courthouse or should i rather build failgold. I like those games.

    Breads make that all faster, so i think the title fits :)
    Allthou strong hammer cities are also good, for turns without good overflow they can fill in and continue failgold.
    Helps that there are many options around that time, besides Aest. we have MoM, sometimes already Chicken Pizza, i also failgolded TGL.
     
  6. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Think again! I thought you got enough money from captures alone and building wealth in faraway (from battle) cities! :D
    I also produced a bit of the failgold in that game and probably produce some whenever I think I can afford that luxury. The real lesson is that if you play really well and micro well (you do both things a bit better), you'll have enough units for the job and also enough OF into failgold. Then in civ it usually somehow snowballs. I can see how WT is considering a role for literally every city, plans every battle and knows where it will happen. That requires much more planning. This strat requires that you commit to the game.

    If you feel this makes a large difference on Normal speed, people should definitely try it more. I will try to go to Space with it before 1500AD.

    @WT

    I am sorry if I missed it somewhere but how do you control when will you get the failgold, if you do at all (I presume you don't finish early wonders as that is expensive)?
     
  7. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    There are a lot of factors to consider when comparing marathon and normal speed. On normal speed you will never need remotely as much gold, because you cannot capture as many cities. Maximizing aggressive expansion on marathon can lead to way over 100 cities in the BCs, as we have seen in deity G-Majors. That will never happen on normal speed. So while you cannot create as much failgold on normal speed, you don't need it either. Gold deficit won't be nearly as high as on mara.

    I've never tried going full bananas with conquest while also maintaining an economy on normal speed. I think the most I've had was about 30 cities in the BCs with -350 gpt at 100%, -110 gpt at 0%. That is still a lot of gold to generate, but I think the amounts we'll see in this game will far exceed that. Also, 30 cities in BCs was emperor difficulty. Good luck reaching that on deity. ;)
     
  8. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    It's a shame but I think this is very much in the point, especially about the opportunity window being narrower. It's a shame, really, because the game already feels way easier in Epic/Marathon (especially with a good UU), so for normal games one really doesn't need much more.

    Than being said, the strategy is very interesting and I'm really looking forward to see if it's enough to accomplish the space victory in the BC.
     
  9. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    Thanks a lot for sharing this strategy with us. I'm waiting to see how you will take it to a whole new level. I now also understand the immense power of Sushi in such a space game, every Sushi city will basically be able to whip out a wonder almost to completion very fast.
     
  10. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I'm so happy to see the positive response. :thanx: I was a little worried people would just say "that's just wonder failgold. What's the big deal?" But you guys are seeing the bigger picture. And you can't hardly argue with the resulting sushi date I got in GM-144.

    I posted a Warning in the WBE writeup that touched on this. It can be painful waiting for the AI to finish wonders. That's why you have to plan way ahead to have enough gold to get to the next payoff. Of course you force the Oracle payoff, but there aren't many other must-builds like Taj and HangingG. HangingG doesn't work for failgold because cities need an aqueduct...and who has time for that building? You may need to self-build MoM, Parthenon to get them in time, but the urgent need to finish them makes it hard to collect much failgold. We'll see some examples as the game plays out.

    wonder failgold takes priority over courthouses. I doubt I'll even build a courthouse in the mid-game (pre corps). Unless I build the minimum required for Forbidden Palace.

    Absolutely will do this. Hermitage is best for this. Moai is a distant #2. HeroicEpic is not good (need rax). NatEpic is good for some failgold, but you don't want to give that away and start over.
    :devil: I actually have a 2nd evil trick with National Wonders which I'll discuss when I use it. I may have mentioned it somewhere already. Maybe GM-144.

    The opposite is true here. Normal actually has the advantage. You can only get 30h overflow from a warrior, not triple like you want. An Axe is only 70h. and if you want 70 overflow, you need to put 69h into it! That sux and you're still not getting the full 90h potential. I want to work double corn and some farms and put 1 hammer/turn in, but I can't wait 69 turns to whip it. On Normal, you can put 4/35 into an Axe and get max overflow.
    It not until you find a nice unit like Galley on Marathon where you can put 9/100 in and get max OF. (Horse Archers and Cats can work here too) But then you build a forge and that doesn't work any more cus whips are now 112h.
    Buildings are just as bad. You need 89h in a lighthouse, granary, library, or forge to get max OF. Who has 89 hammers lying around? Barracks can get some bonus hammers. In the current game (around T125) I've already realized that maybe a few mines are worth it on Marathon to help with this problem. ofc, that doesn't mean I've actually prioritized a mine yet, but I'm keeping an open mind. This is only my 2nd game using such a food-focus.

    [offtopic] I'm loving this new forum and editor. Do you realize you can highlight text and a 'reply' button pops up. Then you highlight another quote and 'reply' and it's all added to the same post. And that post is autosaved. :rockon:
     
  11. ikotomi

    ikotomi Prince

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    Does the plan change drastically during Golden Ages? I'm assuming you're going to try to chain many of them together, and whipping pops can be quite painful when they can be specialists, or the 1 commerce tiles turn to 3 commerce tiles + whatever other hammer resources it had.
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I do have to work around Golden ages. Certain cities (many of them) need to build up population for specialists. Often you want to be in Caste for GP farms during the GA which precludes slavery :(. It will take some management to keep the gold coming in. But a GA is only 24 turns. Not even enough time for 1 whip anger to wear off. I may not 'chain' GAs, but instead separate them to get 6 turns of whipping. More on that when the GP bulb plan comes out.

    btw, 1 commerce becomes 2 in a GA. You don't get the FIN bonus in this case.
     
  13. Tatran

    Tatran Deity

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    Well, that's an anti-climax. No great mistery has been revealed, because I've been doing this for the last 2 years or so in my own civ 4 games. (See the comment I've made in another thread about almost or never losing a wonder race.)
    Rushing wonders isn't very efficient, because you only get 50% of the hammers.
    I had a few games with cities building multiple never to finish wonders (Hagia Sophia, Statue of Zeus, MoM, etc.), but it's simply not my style of playing.
     
  14. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    He isn't whipping the wonders themselves, he's whipping other things into the wonders to avoid the 50% penalty.

    I don't think the "great mystery" was ever really about the mechanic. It was always very likely to be something that was already known to some extent. The mystery was more about how the mechanic can be optimized and pushed to its limits to achieve extraordinary results.
     
  15. MkLh

    MkLh King

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    How about Palace? Can't you just build it infinitely many times without any tricks?
     
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  16. DrCron

    DrCron Prince

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    I never actually tried this, but it wouldn't be logical for the palace to give failgold, right? Can't you move the capital as many times as you want?
     
  17. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Yeah, I doubt Palace would give failgold. If you build it somewhere else, you can still build it in any other city.

    I sometimes tried getting failgold from cathedrals as well, but unfortunately it didn't work. A shame, since it would have been so convenient to trigger the failgold by gifting away one city with a temple.
     
  18. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    This is it exactly. Everyone knows that food is king and many people use F -> OF H -> Gold in their games from time to time to get a big influx of cash. The difference here is that WT has taken this well-known game mechanic to the extreme and he leverages it to the maximum. Every choice is evaluated against the trade off of instead putting OF hammers into fail gold: every tile improvement, every build, every citizen assignment, etc.

    To be honest, we tried to apply this to our recent SGOTM game but it really didn't come up that often. In fact, we probably would have had almost the same amount of fail gold had WT not told us about the WB economy because fail gold is so important. It seemed like we always had something else to build with our OF hammers. Plus, the conquest gold and techs came in so fast that the research phase of the game happened pretty quickly. In other words, we didn't try to use this to the extreme during that game.

    @WT Do you think we could have leveraged the WBE more than we did in the recent SGOTM? What would the trade off have been?
     
  19. Tatran

    Tatran Deity

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    Don't get me wrong, I've respect for all Deity level players, but I've not the patience, because my brain won't let me, to do that kind of micromanagement.
    My style of playing is very close, including comments, to Marbozir's 'let's play civ 6 as Greece'.

    Btw, I do think projects will give fail gold. But that's probably not relevant to the outcome of any game.
     
  20. Fippy

    Fippy Mycro Junkie Queen

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    It's WTs, Kaizillas and others time commitment that makes those games rather fascinating.
    I will not lie, wonder bread economy i knew this concept for years but..everything is bigger and more impressive here.

    I do think this was blown up a bit, but it's exactly what Civ4 needs after ~10 years.
    It's nothing but positive.
     

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