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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I love the planning, WT. It's what is required to put the full power of WBE on display.

    Re: WBE > HE You're right that getting gold through fail gold is better than building wealth directly; although at some point you have more than enough gold and you've hit the one-tech-per-turn threshold (not sure if that actually happens on Deity Marathon though). I guess it's still better to get WBE gold and build Research than to just build Wealth though... I've found that when I'm keeping the slider at 100% by building wealth, near the end of the game when my big hammer cities switch to building space parts, I either struggle to keep the slider at 100% science or I'm not able to get that last tech in one turn. In other words, you can never have too many OF beakers as a safety net even if you are doing one tech per turn down the stretch.

    I'm talking in circles but that's because my head is spinning (haha) but I support your statement that "It will always be better to continue WB Economy than build wealth." ... as long as you have an AI finishing all of those late-game wonders for you.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    The AI is pretty much completely beat down late game. No wonders coming from them after corps. But fortunately you don't need them for that. You have things like the Hermitage trick if you're not building a world wonder. Or maybe Executive failgold.
     
  3. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Playing the Devil's Food Eat Your Cake and Have It Advocate

    What about putting the failed Oracle Failgold into the Colossus, since you're Oracling MW and building forges? Get an earlier Colossus in addition to your list above. Pull all the wonders forward. Are there more chops out there you're delaying by delaying further conquest? What about more whips? They need to happen before you flip to castes. Your greatest window of opportunity is these pitiful turns of 0% research. (We all pity you, WT. :cool:)

    Would it help to list out the wonders you're going to abuse on the timeline and see how to crunch it?
     
  4. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Colossus has several problems.
    1) only can be done in coastal cities
    2) coastal cities need terrace, lighthouse, first
    3) forge also needed for Colossus
    4) they also have to do all the workboats/galleys
    5) Having all the water tiles usually means less forests.
    6) some of my coastal cities have already chopped everything (either on the Terrace or GLH, Oracle, GW)
    7) coastal cities have Moai to play around with.

    It would be nice to shorten or eliminate that 0% research window. I was thinking the StoneFish start would have had the ability to do that with Henge gold and GW gold (which btw, should have been built by now)

    I can't hardly whip any more than I am. I'm trying to regrow/recover from the early quechua whip stage. That's the reason I haven't kicked off the Oracle Plan (above) yet even tho I have Marble hooked up.

    Maybe I'll list out the wonders. Good idea.
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2016
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Wonders and the approx. turn they're built. Bold are built by me.
    This is hard cus the AI build dates can be so random. GW is not built in the MarbleStart game yet at T132
    I'm concerned that the AI is going to be very slow on all wonders.
    I think I'll be building more wonders myself than I'd like unless I resist the temptation on things like Hagia and Parthenon.

    Henge T80-90
    GW T110-120
    GLH T140 (no failgold -- no resource bonus)
    Oracle T150
    HangingG T160 (no failgold- Aqueduct)
    Colossus T160 (limited gold: coastal + forge neded)
    (I don't always build this, but I don't want to wait til T200+ this game)
    TempleArt ?T170
    Pyramids T190 (I will probably build it for the GE points)
    Moai T? when needed
    MoM T210 (short window where I have calendar)
    Nat Epic T220 (short window)
    Parthenon T230
    ?Zeus
    ?Chichen
    ?A Wat
    ?Paya
    Great Library T250
    Taj T250
    Hermitage T260?
    when needed
    Hagia T260
    Sankore
    Kremlin (but built in 1 turn, so no failgold)
    Hermitage again T280
     
  6. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    Doyou have stone already?
     
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Of course. Maybe this is a good time to mention, for anyone that missed it, that I'm keeping a nice Table of Contents in post #2.

    Where you'll see lines like:
    T116-T129 Stone. Suleiman. Justin again for Priesthood. Marble.

    indicating this is the turnset I connected Stone (and also Marble)
     
  8. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Planning Settlers for the GP Plan (not the GP Plan itself)

    I'm doing something very different (for me) this game. Once I have my Oracle gold, I'd like to make a bunch of settlers ASAP, before forges even. I always put out a couple for island trade routes, but I have a different motivation this time:
    There is a very small window where I can settle a 2-seafood island and get that large enough and soon enough to be a GP farm that supports the pre-corps era rush. I estimate it takes at least 60 turns for a newly founded city to get up to speed. And that's with 1 forest which aren't always easy to find in the ocean. Pretty much the only way to set up faster than 60t is if I can find 2-food spots with 2 forests for the Terrace.

    In order to be part of my GP plan. Cities probably need to be set up by ~T220.
    So I would need to settle around T160 or if I have 2 forests, T170.

    I'm going to cut Lisbon from the Oracle failgold plan. It's a strong settler whipper. I can grow it to size 6 and whip it to size 3 twice by T160.
    Cuzco can do one by T160
    Orleans also, same turn
    Hamburg
    Constantinople

    (update: Boston was captured at size 7 and will 3-whip a settler too)

    That's six settlers. (update: I changed Lisbon to just one settler, but the new Boston one means it's still six.)

    If I can't find worthy sites, I can always just not do it. I'll have nothing invested in the settlers.
    I would only need to do something like T155-157 build settler, T158 whip settler.
    Even if the city doesn't quite make it in time for the GP Plan, these cities will be awesome with 2f5c water tiles.(golden age + Colossus)
    And these six cites wouldn't all have to be islands. But there's not a lot of un-settled land left at T160. The pocket of land I have SW of me is foodless :(.

    I'm a little concerned that I have to whip these with no overflow because it's such a rush job. That means little failgold for quite a while in these 5 cities.

    After this, I'll still aggressively settle the ocean for mining resources and double seafood, but I will be more efficient about it. Using forges and whip overflow.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  9. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    This thread is a real eye-opener for many things. Thanks a lot!

    I tentatively tried some of that strategy for a Noble space race, and found out soon that it doesn't really work that well if the AI doesn't build their wonders fast enough. But it's a lot of fun.
     
  10. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    This is wonderful info, thanks!
    I always associated building destruction with city capture, but it is actually the revolt that causes it ya.

    Didn't know about the barracks either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  11. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    @georgjorge: Many high-level strategies I've seen rely on appropriating AI bonuses for one's self, whether that be production, research, or what have you.
     
  12. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Thinking out loud, for a game that will end in the BCs, does Sushi even pay off? Considering you have to use a GM (could be used for a Trade Mission, Golden Age or bulb instead), crank out a crap ton of execs, shuttle them to the far corners of the map, settle a bunch of island cities (which may be a good idea anyway), etc.

    Sushi definitely pays off in longer games and/or score milking but is it worth it in this game that involves Joseph and Mary watching the shuttle launch from a manger? Something to ponder...
     
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  13. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    This quite possibly became my new favorite Civ quote. :)
     
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    :lmao: good one.

    The post you found (link above) about Mining first vs Sushi also touches on skipping Sushi.
    This game was on normal speed and is probably correct in concluding that marathon speed means Sushi will be worth it. (execs are cheaper and spread faster)
    He also mentioned how important it was to grow your space-parts cities with Sushi. For normal, or lower difficulty, or smaller maps, I would have to think about it more.

    The entire thread for that post you found also happens to be a major inspiration for the Wonder Bread Economy. It's worth a read.
    Snaaty's focus was to keep research at 100%. He used the religious trifecta, shrines, GM trade missions, lots of building wealth and of course some failgold.
    He managed to keep research even during Corp exec spread (which he attributes to Mining first).
    He agrees that Sushi is more powerful--eventually, but slower to get started.
    He has some amazing instincts for this game given the fact that he seems to figuring out space race for the first time--as he plays-- and finishes around 1300AD IIRC (on Normal speed, Immortal). That early of a finish is rarely seen. The HoF has nothing even close in all of normal speed Deity, Immortal, or anything Noble or above. (he was allowed to reload as much as he wanted, but I don't feel that takes away anything from this well planned/executed game.)

    If it's too long to read, just start around post #239 and read Snaaty's posts til the end where he reflects on what he learned. It's not long.
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2016
  15. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I'd considered it before, but Mitchum's post did make me re-ponder cutting sushi again. Just to double check that I'm committed, here's some of my justification:

    I'm hoping to finish research 60 turns after I get the first Corp (Mining)
    Which means I'm hoping to finish 50 turns after Sushi Corp. (that gives me 10 turns to get Communism, Assembly Line, and Medicine--but don't get hung up on my tech path rt now.)
    It takes 10 turns to spread to 40 core cities. Then about 10 turns more gets you to ~70 cities.
    So some of your cities will get about 45+ turns use out of sushi, some only 30 turns. This is kinda hard to estimate, but lets say for simplicity:

    50 cities will on average get 40 turns of Sushi.
    (we may even find that spreading beyond 50 is not worth it)

    by Comparison: Kaitzilla and Seraiel in their 700AD-ish space game spent 85 turns in sushi. But they did sushi before Mining and I'm not sure they spread it super-fast or attempted at all to keep research at 100%. Maybe they'll comment. Similarly, way back in 2012, in my 700 AD game, I spent 95 turns in sushi, but I recall being very lazy about spreading exec then and had no plan to get wealth other than just 'wait for sushi to kick in'.
    edit: so the point is: I'm arguing 50 turns of sushi is still worth it. 85 or 95 turns would be just that much more worth the effort.

    Back to the task at hand...
    Let's also assume that instead of 40 or 50 food/turn you'd get at the end of a score game. We're only going to see 20 fpt this early in the game. That's enough to grow, but doesn't blow the costs out of control. No point growing into angry citizens.

    That's 40,000 extra food for these cities. :eek:
    So each city will get ~800 food up til the end of the game.
    How do you value that?
    1) You could just use my post-Kremlin formula of 1food = 10 gold.
    400,000 gold :eek:

    2) Population, on average will grow back for ~50 food now that we're talking about cities growing well over size 10. (i.e. not the 38 food average I use for early Wonder Bread whips)
    Each sushi city can grow 16 extra population over the 40 turns.
    That's over and above the growth from regular food.
    Remember, cities need to build (or better whip) execs, factory, power, observatory, lab, etc.
    If your cities are working workshops they'll be lucky to be doing +5 food. Without Sushi, they could probably grow back--after all that whipping-- from size 5 to size 10 over the 40 turns.

    3) Could also think of each extra population would either work a workshop (build research) or be a scientist. Either one of these is valued at around 12 beakers.
    So, after 40 turns of sushi, you'd have 800 extra population = 9600 beakers just on the final turn.

    You could also think of it as about 20 population growth--empire wide-- per turn. So after 10 turns of sushi spread, you'd see +240 on turn 11, +480 on t12, +720... up to +9600 bpt.
    With simply using the food in this way for more citizens, sushi added 192,000 beakers not even counting the first 10 turns of it, so as you can see, 400,000 gold from #1 above is a better conversion. I'd want to try to convert at least some of the population to gold. But not if expenses can be covered in other ways. Then, I'll take the beakers.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  16. MyOtherName

    MyOtherName Emperor

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    You've left out two-thirds of the justification!

    • What is the cost of spreading Sushi? How much gold or beakers could you generate if you weren't spreading it?
    • What tradeoffs are you comparing the 400k gold to 200k beakers against? Taking the gold at the 2 gold=1 beaker conversion is right when played against the wealth/research tradeoff of 1 gold=1 beaker, but that's not the relevant comparison here, is it?
     
  17. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    It's 100 BC, and you see a man at a horse.

    It's a horse archers named NgAAk, from a proud Deity Mongolian tribe! He grew up in the far north, the cold, icy and hars north.. which made it hard to survive.. but he did.. He lived his entire life, fighting every element and defeating every foe in his lands. Now he is mighty, strong and rich. A true DEITY!! NgAAK was restless, and easly provoked! Always searching for something new to conquer! Lay the world under his feet! During his lifespan he has heard talk about a great empire to the south.. but never experienced it... this day he travel further then he ever had been.. to find and enslave this land! Then suddenly.. they get into a new cultural boarders.. and the sight they beholden?

    A gigantic ship, hundred times bigger than the biggest man made thing he had ever seen, launched for the sky, sun and the stars!

    How is this possible? I could not in a million years make that thing laying on the ground.. and this thing is airborne!!!

    Suddenly he did not feel neither mighty, strong or rich. Am I not a Civ IV deity leader? Am I not the biggest threat in a normal game? Am I not the guy you want to please or fight alongside, at all costs? he asked himself.. not finding any answers except despair.. he turned around, hoping to forget this sight of overwhelming power .. knowing perfectly well that he never could...

    NgAAk never spoke another word.
     
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  18. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I guess I left this out cus I convinced myself that I had enough to justify sushi.

    You'd have to spend 10,000 hammers on the 50 execs.
    and 2500 gold spreading.

    Let's normalize that into gold. What's that 10,000 hammers worth? Important: these are final-hammers meaning after forge factory and power.
    So this is 5,000 base-hammers.
    Now, (post factory) 1 hammer = 3.5g (assuming you're not running OrgRel), so 17,500 gold

    Total gold spent 20,000 (but this is assuming you used Wonder Bread to get max gold out of your hammers, If you just had built wealth instead of execs, then you spent only 12,500) So 20,000 spent is a worst case scenario.

    Keep in mind that you're actually spending mostly food. This late in the game you can use ~42 population, a.k.a. 2000 food to get 20,000 gold.
    When you have around 100 cities, giving up 42 population is pretty small.

    ----------------------------------

    Then you have to consider the Corp expenses. Someone can post that for me if they have it handy or want to figure it out for 20 food.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2016
  19. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Deity

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    If you have stone and GW isn't done yet, can't you make up for at least some of the failed Oracle Failgold with GW Failgold?
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Not sure there will be a window for that. If I do Oracle early, say T141 by wasting several worker turns. What are the chances that GW is still around? That wonder should be gone already. If that stupid thing goes T141, I'd lose my ability to do failgold T142-147--or at least cash it in quickly.

    I have a good amt in GW already, so I can start research as soon as it get's built.

    GW is very small and the AI will whip wonders. It could be started somewhere and I missed it if it's under 100 hammers. I'd have to look very closely to see if something is being built with stone, but many AI don't have stone. It could be 3 pop whipped any turn, so I'm hoping for a pleasant surprise soon. Vicky and Roosevelt have stone, but are at war. This is probably the reason GW is going so late.
     

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