Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

You need to normalize by subtracting the 2 food cost from each tile, but that adjustment is irrelevant for tile-per-tile comparisons.

e.g. this adjustment says the farm is 1f 1c = 8c and the gold is -2f 3h 9c = 4c, so its still a 4c difference.

The big thing this overlooks is that if you are spending any time working at the next larger size, getting there sooner is worth extra yield. (making the farm even better)

---

Regarding commerce vs. wealth, 1 commerce = 1 gold is the right thing currently, since there are no markets/etc: i.e. any gold not covered by other means would be covered by the slider which converts 1 commerce into 1 gold.
 
I also see some flaws in the calculation, allthough I do see the point you are trying to make. You cannot always turn food into gold, either because you have not enough wonders to whip in, you cannot gift and recapture, or you need something specific like a settler or another thing with sub-optimal whipping cost. It is good to make this calculations to keep in the back of your head how important food is though.

I am starting to think so far this is not as much a Wonder Bread Economy, but more a City Gifting Economy. That is what is really unique in your plays anyway. The trick to get rid of whip anger is the most important part of it. I always struggle with whip anger. And the great synergy with fail gold is that once you have cashed it you can spend it on research in stead of a building that may get destroyed on gift/recapture.

My question is how do you handle whip anger on islands? Are you going to create a recapture fleet? Or do you plan to make dozens of Q's for MP? And what about forges? After that you cannot gift or you may lose them. Or is the city gifting phase already coming to an end? Whip anger is lost so slowly on Marathon, I am curious for your solution.
 
WastinTime said:
I'm so glad I'm not the only one that sees this as bigger than just wonder-failgold. :cool:
At 100% research, market, grocer, banks are not very useful (except in a shrine city) until much later. Here's another example of a change I consider that would never have crossed my mind in the past:

Gold tiles are awesome up to this point in the game (up to Oracle). They provide critical research on the way to Math, and then critical wealth to survive until Wonder Bread delivers its first cash bomb.
But now, I don't prioritize more gold tiles, and I consider stopping working existing gold tiles--at least for several turns.

Recall my formulas 1f=7c, 1h=3c
A gold tile is something like 3h x 3 + 9 = 18c
A riverFarm is 3f x 7 + 1 = 22c (better than gold!)

Even if you use pre-forge, no OrgRel.... 1f=6c and 1h=2.5c
Then goldRiver = 16.5 and riverFarm = 19c

Don't get me wrong, I'm still going to work lots of gold tiles, but not if they cripple city growth. A lower food city would work a couple extra farms first and then add gold as citizen #4, 5 or later.
Click to expand...
So grass river gems would be 25c.

Duckweed once argued for valuing all food, not just surplus. I forget his logic, but his results supported it.
 
The tile comparison for the WBE is probably fine, if all you want to do is maximize fail wealth (gold).

There is a conflicting goal though. We don't just want to run the research slider at 100%, we want our research rate to be as high as possible too. Both 200 Bpt and 1000 Bpt can be at 100% research slider, but obvious we would prefer the latter.

It may be valid to prefer riverside grassland farm over a plains hill gold mine for WBE, but the plains hill gold mine is really much better than riverside grassland farm in generating actual Bpt at 100% research (by a 8 to 1 Cpt ratio).

Thus, the problem in comparing tiles is getting one ranking of tiles for WBE and getting a conflicting ranking when comparing for maximum commerce per turn (Bpt at 100% research rate).

The above should better explain the issues with how tiles are ranked for WBE (that is what I tried to explain in my previous post, but failed). It is again another case of where we have conflicting goals in Civ IV BtS; that is yet another triumph for the Civ IV design team - there still is no simple strategy to beat Civ IV; this helps to explain the longevity of the game, ignoring its mediocre children, Civ V and Civ VI.

LowtherCastle's suggestion of riverside grassland gems is probably the ideal compromise tile for both maximizing WBE and Cpt/Bpt. It is growth neutral for WBE, but it is a really good tile for maximizing Cpt/Bpt; it is dependent on food/farm tiles for growth though.
 
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fjordan said:
My question is how do you handle whip anger on islands? Are you going to create a recapture fleet? Or do you plan to make dozens of Q's for MP? And what about forges? After that you cannot gift or you may lose them. Or is the city gifting phase already coming to an end? Whip anger is lost so slowly on Marathon, I am curious for your solution.
Click to expand...

You never lose a forge on recapture if you have culture in the city.

I only erased anger in 2 cities so far. I may or may not do it again. Last game I had a big plan to do a 2nd round and I ended up skipping it. I'm close to getting Fur, then gems. I hope to settle and island/silver soon too--Forges give +3 happy in that case. Then there are calendar resources.

Islands are easy to recapture, but I don't see me getting too many of them excessively whipped any time soon. I may need to use them for GP farms.
 
Yes. I prefer grassland gems starts over plains hill gold starts, because grassland gems tiles do not impede city growth like plains hill gold tiles.
 
I should be more careful about using 1c and 1g interchangeably. At this point in the game, they are equal, but once you get a library, for example, then a gold tile gets +2 boost in the value of the tile when looking at beakers. And the idea is you never use it for wealth generation any more.

Mitchum said:
So we should be looking for triple riverside gems starts instead of double gold starts, huh? ;)
Click to expand...
I still prefer gold starts. Here's what makes the difference to me:
I want to start working double commerce AND pumping out quechua ASAP. (size 3 = corn, gold, gold = 7-8 hammers)
A city with 2 gems will have to grow to size 4 and build/work a grassRiverMine.
This city is producing less hammers and less commerce at size 4 and presumably took longer to get there.

Example 2: What if you have double corn, etc?
You can't pass up those tiles. Corn, Corn, gems, gems is only 3-4 hammers per turn!! One quechua every 8-10 turns :shake:

The start is not the right time in the game to have +6 or +10 food. You don't have a Granary yet, so 1 food = 3 gold (not 6 or 7) at this point in the game. In fact, maybe that's the easiest way to explain it. A gems tile is not 25g at the start of the game. It's ~16g.

Gold starts also seem to come with floodplains which make a decent 2nd food tile. Don't misunderstand. I'd still play triple gems.
 
MarbleStart Turnset T141 - 149 148 in progress

(New war: Lincoln. Oracle, MetalCasting, Currency)

T141 When we left off, Vicky just grew to size 8 and can whip the Great Wall (or Moai :trouble:)
In anticipation of the GW, I officially go
100% research starting now.
If Vicky doesn't come thru for me, no problem. I can go back to 0%, but by starting now, I can get Currency 1 turn sooner.

T142 Vicky does complete GW :hatsoff:. I'll get just over 1000g next turn.

I trade Darius Priesthood for 90g which allows me to stay at 100% research.
He doesn't have marble yet and doesn't have large enough cities--so no Oracle threat there.

143
I get 1165g to be exact.
Willy asks me to be Buddhist (2 turns anarchy--no thanks) -1 diplo, still Cautious
Peter becomes a Jew. Does that mean he shares a landmass with Liz, the founder of juda? not necessarily.

researching Currency(6)

DoW Lincoln
:assimilate::assimilate::assimilate: (3 workers)

144
Justin demands Math (I go with my usual middle-finger diplomacy)

Forest grows at Hamburg :clap:

A Quest!
Horse Whisperer
fun. Not sure I'll do it.
Spoiler :

Prereq: ANIMAL_HUSBANDRY AND Horse resource
Obsolete: NATIONALISM or PRINTING_PRESS or EDUCATION or GUNPOWDER or ASTRONOMY
Active/Weight: 25/500
Aim:
Build default number of players for this world size stables (7 for standard)
Result:
1.you get default number of players for this world size Horse Archers (7 for standard)
2.All mounted units get the Sentry promotion
3.All stables provide +1 food

Stables are 180h each. I have to build 9 to complete the quest (before Nationalism ~T220)
I'd probably choose the 9 free HAs. They're only 100h, so I'm sorta getting Stables for 80h, but I would not normally build 9 stables. Probably only 2. :think: I'll have to try not to forget this quest is an option. I'm not to excited about it rt now.

(Lincoln) Boston: 12h (assuming Archer)

Nicaea (was Justin's), 0% defense, flat land.
I lose 2 quechua :mad:
but I get the city with chariot + spear. 30g. I'll keep it this time. Lincoln improved the cows for me. And there are jungle/gems in the first ring. Let's see what I can do about those gems....

Mansa got IW and chose Poly.
He won't trade me IW (he's annoyed)
Gift him Poly--Now he is Cautious.
He still won't trade IW cus I'm his worst enemy (til next turn)

2nd Great General is born. What should I do with that?

T145
Mansa chooses Monotheism. OK.
He won't give me IW for just Math. I have to throw in Priesthood.
:devil: I ask for IW and 'War with Lincoln' and he goes for it! +1 shared war :)

I immediately start chopping the gems



Cuzco-West has Iron. Nice. Boston-North (which I'm about to capture)
You can also see a blue (Darius) Marble, but that doesn't have a quarry, Darius' borders just expanded to include it.
The other, similar blue Iron is Lincoln's (if he had IW...or any workers to mine it :satan:



It's been about 70 turns? or more and Washington's Seattle (on Fur, purple, bottom center of map) finally grows to size 2 (curse you NO_CITY_RAZING). Lincoln's 2nd city I plan to capture also has Fur (1st ring), but I won't need that now. It's an expensive city with no food.

Also shows some of the exploring I've done in the west waters.

T146
The library in cuzco triggered a Random event!
choices:
a) 218 beakers for Currency
b) +1 beaker for the library in Cuzco forever.
Spoiler :
I choose (a). I'm actually doing more than 218 bpt, so it only cuts 1 turn off Currency if I MM my cities and build a tiny bit of research.


I've whip/chopped the Oracle in NewYork--the final destination, so Oracle is guaranteed.

I have a few things to think about, so I didn't quite finish this turnset. I wanted to end it with Currency which is now T148 instead of 149. The we'll compare progress and see how the pace looks...pausing...

T147 Metal Casting
We can build workshops although they're only 1h rt now, forges and Colossus.

Some Oracle cash comes in. The rest comes next turn.

Met Liz.
I got Monotheism from her for IW and Writing (she was researching IW, so I feel lucky to get that deal)

T148 Currency
I now have 13 trade routes that are +1 instead of +2. I need a 2nd island ASAP.

Roos: Priesthood for 100g
Willy: is researching Math (based on what he'll offer for it.) I take Meditation+60g

Unfortunately with so many AI dead or beaten down, there's not as much cash around. I normally collect close to 1000g. I'd be lucky to scrape up 500. And I've even met Liz and Peter finally.

I'm burning about -260gpt. That's a bit higher than I planned for. I've never had an empire like this before 2000 BC.

I have 5186g in the bank mainly thx to Wonder Bread/Oracle (and some other sources). I had already burned up the 1000g I got from Great Wall. :scared: What scares me is I feel like I will only be able to maintain research until T170 (22 turns). That's not a lot of time to set up more failgold since all my cities just did there thang and I'm trying to regrow to whip settlers. Forges are a horrible thing to use for overflow which has already been pointed out.

On the bright side, I have 22 turns of research! What to do? So many choices. :dunno:HorsebackRiding(5)? Construction(7)? Machinery(14)?
(CoL, Calendar, Aes : I'm hoping Mansa will pick at least one of those) Monarchy: anyone will trade this, so we don't want Mansa to pick that, nor will we choose it.
So will it be Horse Archers & Stables?, Catapults & bridge crossings?, or Machinery--the one thing no one else can research.

End of Turnset
 
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Regarding the analysis, I do think WT's figures are optimistic for two reasons -- they look like best case scenarios, and I don't really have a feel for how close you can get to that, and they ignore the costs of losing population.

There is another complicating factor that leans the other way: you can only build failgold in one city per turn per wonder -- doing it with whip overflow (and concurrently timed chops) lets you do more per turn, and thus has some advantage even if it were to mean fewer hammers overall.
 
georgjorge said:
A fascinating read for sure!

Built any cottages yet?
Click to expand...

The only cottages I have are the ones the AI built for me. No sense destroying the ones that you'll get some use out of before replacing.
I have pillaged more than I've kept. In fact, in the Washington (Purple) situation shown above, I already let him cottage the tile which he is re-cottaging now. I'll pillage it again when I take Seattle.
 
I'm glad that you brought up a comparison because I was thinking about that yesterday. Can you compare your progress to both your BC space launch game and your 10M game? Thanks! ;)
 
A comparison to WastinTime's previous record setting Space Colony game, where he isn't using WBE would be interesting too. In other words, a WBE game versus non-WBE game comparison with the same victory condition (Space Colony) goal.
 
I'll also compare with the three most recent, record breaking 700 AD-ish space races. It might be hard to get details from those 3 since they're not mine, but bcool, Seraiel and Kaitzilla are all still around. Maybe they'll contribute. They're all on Large. My 700 AD was on Standard and my 10M was Huge.
Possibly also include my 5M score game (on standard).
There is a significant difference in tech cost on different size maps--which mainly affects the first 150 turns.
 
WastinTime said:
I'm going to cut Lisbon from the Oracle failgold plan. It's a strong settler whipper. I can grow it to size 6 and whip it to size 3 twice by T160.
Cuzco can do one by T160
Orleans also, same turn
Hamburg
Constantinople
Click to expand...

I was looking back at my settler plan. I'm happy that none of these cities is coastal except Lisbon. I may cut one settler and just do one in Lisbon. Reason is: I'm going to need Colossus failgold. That should be: Istanbul, Munich, Lisbon, maybe Altanta (which I haven't even captured yet). Not sure I want forges in all those places right now. I could do Moai instead. Lots of planning ahead.
 
I updated the turnset report above to get us to T148 (MC and Currency)
Here's the new stuff:
Spoiler :
WastinTime said:
T147 Metal Casting
We can build workshops although they're only 1h rt now, forges and Colossus.

Some Oracle cash comes in. The rest comes next turn.

Met Liz.
I got Monotheism from her for IW and Writing (she was researching IW, so I feel lucky to get that deal)

T148 Currency
I now have 13 trade routes that are +1 instead of +2. I need a 2nd island ASAP.

Roos: Priesthood for 100g
Willy: is researching Math (based on what he'll offer for it.) I take Meditation+60g

Unfortunately with so many AI dead or beaten down, there's not as much cash around. I normally collect close to 1000g. I'd be lucky to scrape up 500. And I've even met Liz and Peter finally.

I'm burning about -260gpt. That's a bit higher than I planned for. I've never had an empire like this before 2000 BC.

I have 5186g in the bank mainly thx to Wonder Bread/Oracle (and some other sources). I had already burned up the 1000g I got from Great Wall. :scared: What scares me is I feel like I will only be able to maintain research until T170 (22 turns). That's not a lot of time to set up more failgold since all my cities just did there thang and I'm trying to regrow to whip settlers. Forges are a horrible thing to use for overflow which has already been pointed out.

On the bright side, I have 22 turns of research! What to do? So many choices. :dunno:HorsebackRiding(5)? Construction(7)? Machinery(14)?
(CoL, Calendar, Aes : I'm hoping Mansa will pick at least one of those) Monarchy: anyone will trade this, so we don't want Mansa to pick that, nor will we choose it.
So will it be Horse Archers & Stables?, Catapults & bridge crossings?, or Machinery--the one thing no one else can research.
Click to expand...
 
T148 MarbleStart

21 cities (+2 gifts I don't want back just yet)
22 workers.
I've built: 1 settler and 0 workers.
67 Population
16 Terraces and 4 lighthouses. 1 library (3 coming soon)

Military: 9 Q, 2 Axe, 3 spear, 3 chariot.
5 AI are DEAD and 2 are crippled.

5186g bank @-260gpt

Research rate: 225 bpt (that's 270 final-beakers with the usual 20% bonus)
Surprising, and maybe for the first time ever, my bpt is below my -gpt, but I've got 3 gold and 2 gems in the works along with a couple libraries to help turn that around.
I already have: Metal Casting, Currency, Monotheism
(possible future: T160 Machinery)

Score: 348,000 if I win this turn.

GLH T136, Oracle T148
 
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T148 of GM-144. 10 million score game

16 cities
13 workers
43 population
13 Terrace, 1 lighthouse

Military : 11 Q, 2 chariot
4 AI dead, 1 crippled

420g @-164gpt (~100 less!)
190bpt (this is quite good considering I don't have Currency's trade rts yet.)

(future) researching...
149 Priesthood
(halt research)
154 free Mono
156 Oracle/Currency
163 Metal Casting

I have GLH (142)
 
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