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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Kaitzilla's Hi score game @ T148, 2020 BC
    (I can only get so much info from the logs)

    11 cities (capital plus 10 captured)
    (edit: Kaitzilla reported only 9 cities, so he must have razed 2 :nono:)

    147 Mathematics
    148 Alphabet
    Iron Working

    (very near, future research)
    149 Sailing
    Monotheism
    150 Priesthood
    153 Oracle/Currency

    Since he doesn't have Sailing at T148, no GLH yet. (T164)
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2016
  2. Mitchum

    Mitchum Chieftain

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    Looks like you have an awesome pace going. As you said, it's interesting that your research rate isn't a lot higher but I guess that's the tradeoff you make by whipping so much. Not that 200+ but at 2000 BC is bad. :)
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    From 2013: an unpublished, incomplete, Large Score game (target 7 million)

    Incidentally this was (corn, 4x gems AND 1 gold start in the capital!) :eek:

    at T148

    16 cities
    13 workers
    48 population

    Military: 13 quechua, 1 axe
    6 AI are beaten down (0 are DEAD :mischief:)

    500g @-187gpt
    222 bpt

    bpt is very high because:
    112 Alphabet
    128 Currency
    140 Code of Laws
    141 Priesthood
    142 Masonry
    143 Oracle->free Civil Service (bureaucracy with 4 gems and 1 gold)
    144 Great Lighthouse

    Why the hell didn't I finish this game!?!?
     
  4. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Keep in mind that the Wonder Bread effect on research hasn't really happened yet. I've got over 5,000g in the bank, but that hasn't given me much extra research (other than self-researching Currency with GW failgold) So I wouldn't expect to be even with a 5-commerce start, but it's pretty close. I have MetalCasting and it has Civil Service
     
  5. fjordan

    fjordan Chieftain

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    So here we see the initial trade-off of the WBE. If you whip down everything there is less commerce to put through the 100% research slider. But I am sure the enormous amount of cities will start to pay off pretty soon, through even more fail gold and maybe even some developed cities.

    Another question then: aren't you playing this a bit too much as a score game, that is, is it not better for a fastest research game to cripple less AI's to raise the overall tech pace so you can trade / steal beside self research?
     
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Can't really describe it as a 'trade off' since I'm doing more bpt than even a 5-commerce capital running Bureaucracy! and that empire has 16 cities @2020 BC too. One of the largest empires I've set up until this WBE game.

    That's another big adjustment I had to make with WBE. Research is so fast that that you have to do more of it yourself.
    And because it's just sooo much better, you can do your usual research and some the AI used to provide.
    You still try to get what you can from the AI. Whatever they can scrape up before, say, T230. But most of them are useless after that.
    There are still plenty of AI around, but they're just not going to get me some things I used to wait for. Feudalism comes to mind. I never researched that before WBE. I'd also usually get Guilds, Construction, Engineering, Banking, free, etc, but that was when I was getting Sushi T320-350. Now I want all my research done for space race in that same timeframe. There just isn't much you can expect the AI to do from 250-350, but I'll try to find some support. I think that was your point. I should try to have a couple super strong (ideally friendly) AI for some late game research help. Thx for reminding me. I'll see if someone steps up. Maybe Darius. Maybe Liz, she's not as mad at me (being off-continent.) Mansa is kinda pinned in, but I put him at war with Lincoln, so that could expand him. Still, not great land for him.

    Now that I'm thinking more about it, I'm really glad you posted your question. I should make a list of things I might get the AI to do--late game.
    Example: gift them Nationalism (which I try to get very early) after I safely have Taj-- maybe they'll get me Constitution? :think: That's needed before Corporation tho. I doubt I can get Mansa to that early enough. Other possibilities:
    Compass
    Optics
    Astronomy
    Rifling
    Democracy
    (so I could build Statue of Liberty)
    maybe Artillery

    suggestions anyone?
     
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Mid game Research Plan

    GS bulbs are a key strategy in my game. It's unrelated to and somewhat works against the WBE philosophy. Growing cities and working a stack of scientists, but it's only a few cities and only for a short while. Another new thing I've added to my favorite strategies to support my GS bulbs is Mercantilism. Especially when you're killing most of the AI and rely on internal trade routes anyway. I used to always let Mansa get me free Banking, now I race there.

    Now that we have Currency & Metal Casting:

    I usually grab HBR quick so I can war with HAs, but I've actually got some more cities I can get with quechua, and I feel a bit over-expanded.
    Machinery, (wait for free Monarchy), then immediately switch to Feudal, Guilds (knights), Banking (Merc)
    If I need to kill time waiting for Monarchy, I might do Construction or if I already have that free in trade, then I could do Engineering (road movement+trebs). I may have to do Aes or Calendar if it doesn't look like the AI will provide this.
    Literature/Music is another way to pass the time.

    In a perfect world, Mansa gets CoL or I get it from someone and gift it to Mansa. Then he bulbs Philo with a GS.

    Then I go Nationalism for Taj

    Paper, Education, GunPowder

    bulb Printing Press and Chemistry

    This is the first time I make a change for Space Race vs Score victory condition:
    Replaceable Parts, Steam, Steel, Liberalism -> Railroad
    Economics
    , (free Constitution?) Corporation (Mining Inc)
    I'm still debating where Communism goes (for Kremlin)
    Assembly Line (factory/power)

    bulb
    SciMethod and Biology
    Must wait til after Biology => (free Compass and Optics)
    Medicine (sushi)

    Summary: Not listing any free or bulbed techs, at a minimum, I would need to manually research only these 18 techs (in roughly this order):
    Machinery,
    Feudal,
    Guilds

    Banking
    Engineering
    Nationalism
    Paper,
    Education,
    GunPowder
    Replaceable Parts
    Steam
    Steel
    Liberalism
    Economics
    Corporation
    Communism
    Assembly Line
    Medicine (sushi)


    (update: For earlier Kremlin, I'm considering this adjustment after Liberalism...:
    Liberalism (RR)
    Communism (only works if I've got the GS's to bulb SciMeth)
    Economics
    Corporation

    Or, even earlier Kremlin. Use Liberalism on something smaller than Railroad...
    RepParts
    Lib (Steam to reveal Coal)
    Communism (again, only works if I've got the GS's to bulb SciMeth)
    Steel
    Railroad
    Economics
    Corporation

    Or, just Lib (Communism as soon as I bulb SciMeth)

    Estimating when I can get SciMeth: It is bulbed with GS #4 and #5 (see GP plan). Because we get a GE first, and 2 GPs for the next golden age, GP #7 and #8 go to SciMeth. #8 is 2400gpp. I estimate that is around 40 turns after the Golden Ages start. That'd be around T260.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
    Imploding likes this.
  8. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Chieftain

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    So great reading! Please don't stop and finish it. :king:
    Last time enjoying the reading when Katzilla played the Earth mod :thumbsup:
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Thanks RedKi-rr (and anyone else who chimes in) I appreciate the support.
    I worry sometimes that people are having a hard time following possibly due to my lack on screenshots, etc. Maybe this post will bring the followers into the game more...

    Wonder Bread Colossus (750h) plan
    and a review of all coastal cities


    One max OF whip (~90h) + 2 forests (180h) = ~270.
    Since every Colossus failgold city will have a forge...
    270 x 2.75 = ~742 of 750h (need to be careful not to go over)

    Potential coastal locations:



    Chicago. The city would probably have to whip the lighthouse first--just so it can grow, then get back to size 4 and whip a forge. Whip down to size 1 for overflow but then there are no chops. If the city eventually gives up the horse tile to NewYork (south), then it won't have any use for a forge. It will just work water tiles. No Colossus here. Maybe some Moai.



    New York
    . (GLH, Oracle) All chopped out. This is my golden age GP. I need to whip the library and run scientists. Overflow will go into Moai. It'd be nice to add the Colossus gpp to the city, but no forests.



    Lisbon.
    Food powerhouse. Plenty of forests. It's whipping one of my settlers, and a forge. Finding overflow will be tough. Might need an anger reset here. I would love to 2-whip a forge and 3-whip a settler, but that would mean growing 3 pop. This is the only city that can get a settler out T152. Every other settler city is T160+. How bad do I need/want the earlier settler? Maybe I should just suffer without it and do the more efficient thing: forge first--especially since I need it for Colossus.
    Recall from the Settler Plan for GP Farms, I can't hardly get any cities settled after ~T165 up to size 7 in time (the minimum for a GP farm)



    Berlin.
    Note the 2 grass farms :scan:
    Remember, this is the GE city.
    A bit of a slow grower. This city is 2-whipping a forge. Then 2-whip Aqueduct into Hanging Gardens + chops
    It should also be able to 2-whip something else T172-ish No, this city can't whip again so soon. It needs to run an engineer and has very little food for growth then.
    Chop 2-3 into Colossus. (not sure when) Hanging Gardens wants to come right after I settle my 5 new cities. I'll re-capture all my gifts at the same time.
    There are 10 forests here :eek: but one is on Deer, so probably not gonna chop. Should be enough for Mids here too. I suppose I should count:
    Colossus fail would like 2 forests (maybe 3)
    HangingGardens will need 3 (there will be 100 overflow into Mids)

    Mids are 1500:hammers: ouch. (target T200-ish)
    The city will want to run an Engineer (plus cow & Deer) means 8 base hammers. Nice number. That's 8 x 2.75 = 22hpt in Mids. Maybe try to get 400 organic :hammers:
    Forests are 247h, so maybe one max OF whip and 3 forests would be enough.




    Munich.
    This city will struggle to contribute. It has 5 forests technically, but only one of those is solely Munich's. fyi..I had already chopped this one and it has regrown. The others are shared with Berlin (Hanging Gardens, Colossus failgold, probably Pyramids. (Mansa may have already started mids btw..unless it's Moai again.)
    The city also shares it's farm w/Berlin and floodplain with Hamburg.



    Adrianople (northern Justin city)
    Next turn it will be size 3 @ +8fpt. Should be able to pull off 2-whip forge, 2-whip lighthouse OF into Colossus (with 2 chops)



    Istanbul (former Ottoman capital)
    It's all set with Terrace/lighthouse, but it's only +6fpt.
    It will need ~22 turns to grow enough to 2-whip the galley that's already prepped.
    Then 2-whip a forge. Put the pre-whipped galley back in the queue after the forge, OF into Colossus with 2 chops ~T170.
    (Istanbul update: This plan is a bit too slow and the galley is going to have hammer rot soon. It's also bad form to whip before a forge and then put the galley in the the queue after the forge. So instead (similar to Atlanta's new plan) 2-whip the forge, prep a 7/60 workboat. 1-whip for 60h OF.)



    Paris
    This city doesn't want to be below size 5 very often or very long. It's +6 fpt.
    It's going to 2whip a library after some more growing, OF into Moai. I'd like a forge, but that will take some more grow time.
    This was my original choice for the Oracle site. The city was going to do a library since it has a gold and work 2 sci for the first GP. When with NewYork instead.
    (Paris update: I need a galley, so I'm going to do the 2-whip forge and then 1-whip a galley that at ~80/100, OF Colossus
    I will also 1-whip the library at ~269/270.
    Smaller whips so I can work those great tiles. end update)

    But where will Colossus eventually get built?
    How about here:



    Atlanta
    Currently owned by Lincoln. Can it manage forge/Colossus around T170?
    Let's say I capture it and it comes out of revolt T157 at size 5 (Lincoln can't whip)
    It starves to size 4 as I put 1t into a forge. 4->2 whip the forge.
    :wallbash: the 1st ring tiles are so bad I can't even get 4h (which would be 5h with forge). So, if I want it here, I'd need to chop 3 forests. Why here? I'd like it to use the Colossus culture to steal the Deer and lots of forests from Mansa. I suppose I could put Colossus somewhere else and just conquer Timbuktu (3 crabs, cow, forests), but I'm hoping Mansa will pick some good techs for me.

    (Atlanta update: 5->4 whip quechua, 4->2 whip forge, build quechua OF Colossus + 2 forests) no, not enough food at size 4

    Possible Atlanta problems:
    - The Terrace might not survive. That would mean no border pop, but there are 2 forests so it's still on.
    - Mansa might get the city before me and ruin the plan. No biggie.

    ---------------------

    I don't want to force myself to put a forge in cities that won't make good use of it (Chicago).
    I think I can get--at most--about 6 failgold cities and a 7th city to complete it. I expect about 4000g around T170. could be only 3000g so let's only count on this to provide ~10 turns of research.

    :think:
    Should I just do Moai for failgold and build Colossus -- once -- quickly?

    I'm surprised to count that I'm only working 7 water tiles right now. Let's say, best case, I'm working 20 water tiles by T160. That would mean by building Colossus 10t earlier I'd get ~200g. Drop in the bucket. I think it makes sense to delay Colossus and do the failgold plan even tho it's only buying me about 10t of research.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
  10. fjordan

    fjordan Chieftain

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    Thank you very much for answering my questions and again for your effort anyway.
    But I think the fact you have 21 cities has nothing to do with WBE, but mostly with your excellent warring skills. That is why it keeps up with the top games. I personally think you are such a great player you could sell any strategy. So a pre-BC space win is still required to prove your point :scan:. Another option would be to screw up the next SGOTM to prove me wrong but I really enjoyed those for your team so dont.
    Keep up the good job!
     
  11. ikotomi

    ikotomi Chieftain

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    None of the other games he posted for comparison had anywhere near 5000+ gold. Even if it was possible for them to conquer more cities, it's not feasible to keep research running without a plan to get massive amounts of wealth, which is where the WBE is really kicking in.
     
  12. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Don't worry, I'm sure many of us are closely following this thread.
    I for one check this thread first whenever I enter CFC!
    Wonderful and super-interesting thread, superb game :goodjob:
     
  13. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    What do you think, why is there such (relative) difference in bpt?
    With so much less population and cities, this is only because you worked more commerce in that game, instead of working food tiles in this one?
     
  14. tycoonist

    tycoonist Chieftain

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    Haven't done anything but lurk here for a (very long) while, but this game is great. One of the best I've ever read. Keep at it!
     
  15. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    My closest save is T150, 2000BC :)

    9 Cities, 10 Workers
    8 Quechuas, 3 Axemen, 1 Exploring Workboat
    Pyramids + Stonehenge (I got a lot of fail gold from both too)
    Best techs are Math + Alpha, and I got Currency 3 turns later on T153 with Oracle ya.

    Your game is way ahead of where mine was :D
    21 cities and 22 workers and Metal casting!
    Gogo impossible BC space!
     

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  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I think you're asking 'How can 16 cities be doing about the same bpt as 21 cities? (if we give the 16 city game Currency to make them even)'

    I would not say it has much to do with working more food tiles since these are the two games where I used WBE.
    Differences are probably things like:
    1) 21 cities is 18 cities plus 3 recently captured/in revolt.
    2) 16 city game had triple gold and I captured a 4-hamlet city.
    3) 16 city game has 3 libraries vs 1.
    Probably some other little things all add up to balance out these two games which were played with almost the same strategy.

    But now that I read you question again, I see you ask about population. 43 vs 67. :think: That is pretty huge. Let me look closer...
    - 10 population is in revolt, so 67 is really 57.
    I guess the hamlets and libraries are what evens the games out even tho one has 14 more population working.

    I'd say this game I'm a bit more committed to WBE. Last time it was all new and I was more careful.
    I've been farming dye and wine tiles and generally focusing more on growth.
     
  17. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    GP Plan

    Since I've already mentioned I'm bulbing PPress, Chem, SciMeth, and Biology, I might as well lay out the plan. I'm not going to pick cities yet. You may recall, I'm still exploring the ocean and attempting to find/settle some GP farms yet...up until T170.

    You might be surprised to realize that a GS bulb is around 7000:science:, and that's pretty conservative.

    You get 4500:science: plus 9 x population.
    So a population of 300 makes a bulb = 7200.

    Education (~10,000), PPress (~8000) and Chem (~9000) will get 1 bulb each.
    SciMeth (~13000) gets 2 bulbs
    Biology (~19000) gets 3 bulbs
    Reminder: you can't bulb Biology if you have Compass. The GS would go to Optics (3000) and then Astronomy.
    Note: if my GS bulbs are 8,000+ instead of 7,000, then I might want to only use 2 bulbs on Biology.
    Note: Earlier bulbs (like Edu) won't be 7,000. They might be only 6000, so it's tempting to double bulb Edu. Even more tempting on Huge maps where Edu is ~12,000.

    That's 8 GSs

    PPress bulb is needed early in order to research RepParts and Steam.
    Chem can't be delayed too long since you need it for Steel (it also boosts workshops).

    'Free' Music GArtist or not? I can't decide.
    It costs over 3000:science:, but you could argue that you get 7000:science: from having an extra GS.
    But what if you have plenty of GSs and the extra one would just be used on a non-critical, post-corporation tech like Physics? Then all you've done is delay corporations by spending critical time researching Music. The 3000 beakers spent on Music would probably only amount to 1 turn delay on corps since I'll be researching over 3000 bpt.

    Here's a plan without the artist...

    List of GPs
    300gpp: random GP (NewYork) for golden age
    600: GE for Mining Inc
    900: GS for Edu
    1200: GS for 2nd Golden Age
    1500: random GM or GPro (NewYork)
    ---- We must get this far in 24 turns of golden age #1. NewYork must be used for GAge #2

    1800: GS for PPress (maybe move this into GAge #1 if we can fit it in. Using the Music GArt for the golden age would make it easy to move this to the 1200 spot)
    2100: GS for Chem

    2400: GS SciM
    2700: GS SciM
    3000: GS Bio
    (now they jump by 600)

    3600: GS Bio
    4200: GS Bio
    4800: random (NewYork) for GAge
    5400: GArtist (NatEpic city) for GAge (plus free spy)

    I will come down to exactly what cities I have to work with and the # of specialists each can run. You need a couple monster cities to get the 4200-5400gpp slots. Only one of those cities can be the NatEpic.

    Random thoughts:
    - should I be bulbing more techs needed for Mining Inc? SciMeth and Bio are not in the beeline. Only sushi's beeline.
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  18. dfg26

    dfg26 Chieftain

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    Wow I never realized that the beakers you get from a bulb were determined by the size of your empire, interesting stuff.
     
  19. LowtherCastle

    LowtherCastle Chieftain

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    It still boils down to absolute* max bpt, right? What limits that? Probably expansion, but also the GP spamming, since that limits pop growth. What else is there?

    You say you're worried about over-expansion. Can more expansion resolve your questions (Music GA, etc.)?

    * Absolute, meaning not considering gpt maintenance costs.
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    @LC, not sure I understand your question/suggestion/comment
     

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