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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    You can't get 40:hammers: OF from a Q.

    Example: (using 1 hpt)
    Now that I have forges, I'd get only 24 base-:hammers: and 54 gold.
    That's 120 :gold:. Which sounds close to 140:gold: for the upgrade.
    You'd get a C1-Axe and lose 20:gold:

    If you whip an Axe, you get 35h OF = 96:gold:

    116 gold difference.
    ------------------------------------------------

    I think the most inefficient part of this is the 54 gold you get at 1h = 1g.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    :wallbash: Plan B for Atlanta fails too (not enough food to survive at size 4 because I lose a 2f tile to Mansa.)

    After hours of planning, I can't think of a way to get Colossus with only 2 forests.
    Spoiler :
    I tried things like:
    0h "cold-whip" a quechua, then also
    0h whip a scout.
    (so I can feed my citizens at size 3...no starve)
    put both 30h OF into forge.
    organically get the forge up to 1-whip it.
    Set up a wb or axe and 1-whip that.

    Now I'm size 1 and doing 2 hpt. It's close, but I can't finish Colossus for several extra turns.

    My current plan is to chop a 3rd (outside culture) 60h forest. edit: with religion+Terrace borders pop in only 10 turns! forest will be 90h :thumbsup:

    So I'm back to Plan A where I starve 1, then 2-whip the forge. Then max OF a workboat.

    It's a lot of extra work for my workers (chopping the 3rd), but I think I manage only a 1t delay in failgold (coming in T171 now) I think I run out of gold T167 or 168.

    I could just put Colossus somewhere else, but I really think this is a good city for it, and I should get some forests back from Mansa if he doesn't chop them too soon.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I was thinking I would do this since it's allowed by the HoF. Also, it will shed light on this feature which is pretty harmless in my case. I can't get more than 1-2 gpt out of anyone at this point anyway. If there were enough people saying it would cause my game to fall into great dis-respect, then I would consider avoiding this. Maybe we should link to the discussion on it so we don't get too off-topic here. (I don't have time rt now to look it up, gtg)
     
  4. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Ah OK yes. Getting overexcited about different OF rules - they're not that different :)
     
  5. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    There was a discussion in the SGOTM thread here.

    And one in the HOF thread here.

    Personally, I don't care if you use it... but since you're trying to highlight the power of WBE and there are people out there who will look down on the game, then is it worth it?

    On the other hand, you're likely to spend 100+ hours on this game. I think it make sense to use every allowed "exploit" to do the best you can. As has been said many times, one of the biggest "exploits" is the ability for the human to use her brain when it comes to combat (luring units out of cities,etc.), tech trading, galleon chaining, etc. This subsidy trick is waaaaay down the list on the benefit one gets from using it.

    My vote is to go for it. I've never done it so I'd be worried that I'd give gpt and it wouldn't work right. ;)
     
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    WBE is only one piece of the puzzle (albeit a large one).
    It may be the silver bullet that can get BC launch, but I might need all the pieces of the puzzle to get BC landing.

    Several other tricks were needed already--especially in the first 120-150 turns of the game.
     
  7. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    True. You've been using almost all of the tricks and advanced techniques so far so why not use them all... all of the allowed HoF ones anyway!

    Personally, I think the gold you get from subsidizing resource trades is a drop in the bucket compared to the gold you're getting from WBE. Plus, there are drawbacks to subsidizing trades such as slowing down AI research which dampers tech trading.

    If you do it, can you please post some screen shots showing how the process works and how much it nets you vs. not doing it at all?
     
  8. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Settler

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    This thread has been a fantastic read so far! Thank you very much, WastinTime :thanx:
     
  9. dfg26

    dfg26 Chieftain

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    Who do you think the best unrestricted leader would be for this attempt if that was allowed? Roosevelt of Inca maybe?
     
  10. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Interesting question. Right now, with my anit-cottage gameplan, I'm getting +28 commerce from the FIN trait.
    Org would be giving me 34gpt savings (only gives -50% on civic upkeep, not city maintenance, etc.)
    However, Org's 34 is only :gold:, not :commerce: FIN's 28 commerce can be gold or beakers.
    So like I said when I was investigating WBE...if you have gold coming in fast enough, then the 34 from ORG is useless.

    But then ORG has half price lighthouses and courthouses. That's maybe the best thing about it. Again, courthouses will relieve the stress of your expenses, but they don't generate beakers.

    PHI trait has power, so I always consider Liz.
    Louis is tempting too. If you don't have Terraces for culture then the CRE trait is nice (half price libraries too). But in unrestricted leaders, you'd have the Inca Terrace.
     
  11. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    Would you consider Bismarck for half-price Terraces?
     
  12. diegobueno

    diegobueno Chieftain

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    but bismarck and roosevelt have warriors instead of the mighty quechua!
    wt own the early game with quechuas
    edit: play roosevelt/bismarck leader of the mighty incas.
     
  13. UnforcedError

    UnforcedError Settler

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    Wouldn't a leader like Liz reduce the effectiveness of the WB strategy too much? Especially with wonders that don't use stone / marble / copper, like the GLH? Wouldn't IND be a required trait?
     
  14. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    Yes, my question was in the context of unrestricted leaders: Bismarck of the Inca.
     
  15. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Hard to say, but what if you figured that PHI would net you 2 extra GPs on the way to Corps? What could that mean? run an extra (or early) golden age? Put an Academy in a really strong capital? Bulb something else (like double bulb Edu) for 5000-7000 beakers. Build a shrine for +40gpt? etc.

    Remember, the IND trait, like ORG only produce wealth for keeping the research slider up. But if you have enough cash and research is always 100% anyway, then something like PHI has the power to actually speed your research, just like FIN.

    I think the key to wonder gold is not so much IND, but possibly # of forests (and enough workers to chop them). I played my 10M point game on temperate instead of Arid to get the extra 200 forests....even tho Arid gives you a score boost.

    I'm currently feeling a little low on forests and I'm not sure where I'm going to get many more workers. I may have neglected to set up a nice recurring worker steal opportunity (DeGaulle is the best for that)
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Been out of town, but I should make some good progress next week or two.
    The big decision will be: what to research after Machinery. I only have 4t left. There hasn't been much action since I finished my work on Lincoln and I'm sending everyone to swarm Roosevelt now. He's the last AI with only archers. I'm about to scout his land for workers that I can grab first.

    research options:
    CoL for courthouses and allows me to research CS. Also means I can give it to Mansa so he'll bulb Philo
    Construction: No, mansa is doing it (would allow me to research Enginneering tho)
    Calendar: lots of happy resources, can build MoM...but doesn't allow me to research anything else.
    Aes: wonders (also I could give Aes to the AI so they build Parthenon, etc) allows me to research Lit, Music...but do I want to research those?
     
  17. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    Can't wait for another big update!

    I noticed that at least in the Classical era tech tree decisions are not so easy anymore with WBE. You need to reach a good wonder for failgold before gold runs out, and popular choices like Civil Service or Education don't have those.
     
  18. Folket

    Folket Deity

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    Are courthouses worth it? Are they not 360 hammers which is like 720 gold. At 8 gpt would they be a good investment?

    I'm suggeting you get Calender. More happiness seems like it should help you with whipping as much as you want to.
     
  19. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    I'm assuming one would want courthouses in anticipation of Corporations.
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    courthouses:
    You can also count the +2 EPs they give if you assume you can find a way to use them.
    Then the big bonus is the Forbidden Palace. That should make it worthwhile for at least the minimum courthouses.
    I'm not promising I'll build any at this point tho.

    calendar: maybe, but I like to get this from the AI if possible.
    I also don't need to start MoM yet.
    My workers are probably busy with forests and jungled gems/rice/etc.
    I think calendar can wait. However, another way to think about this is that once an AI gets Monarchy, they'll trade it. Then I've got my beeline: Feudal, Guilds, Banking to work on. So if I don't want to delay that, I'll have to get whatever else I need before Monarchy arrives.

    My gut tells me to go Aes, Lit, Music.
    since Music is one thing that you have to get yourself--if you want the GArtist anyway. Building culture will let me pop borders faster.
    Lit lets me do failgold on GreatLib and NatEpic; These are nice to have when the GP farm stage starts. And I usually do a Heroic Epic although I can't find a good city for it yet.
    Aes I want to get to the AI ASAP so they'll build Parthenon for me. I'd take Paya too (in case I have trouble getting Philo free)

    One could even argue that I could have gone to Music first, then Machinery since Music lets me build culture and Machinery might not have any immediate value. The only value I see is if I build Xbows or if I were beelining CS like I usually do (macemen).
     

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