Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

[WastinTime]

Turnset Report T215 - 238?

T215 It's a big turn.

I start the GAge with the music artist.
Rep/Vassalage(for 5 turns)/Caste/Merc/Pacifism

All of my 'small', baseline GP farms all set 7 specialists, slowly starving. Only NatEpic and Glib cities crank up 8 and 12 respectively

After MM, the Result : 1201 base-bpt (1441 final-bpt) Actually it's +1681 bpt into Civil Service(3)

I'm about to start a war with Darius (landlocked center of our main landmass). Willy (south of him) just DoW'd this turn too. I can't decide if I should let them knock heads a bit and sneak in the back door.
I'm all ready to disconnect his only iron.
Hot tip: Best of all, since I now share Darius's religion and worked on other diplo to overcome the -8 declared on our friend. He is Pleased. Which is needed to get him to switch civics. I can't switch him out of slavery until I'm out of slavery. Well guess what, I'm in caste. Darius is now in caste too. No whipping defenders!

I decide to get more knights in position first (allows Darius to complete a chop which I was trying avoid)

T216

GProphet born

DoW Darius and take 1 big city.

T217
Capture another big city

T218

Steal 101 from Lincoln's gift city

Gift 4 former-Russian cities to Lincoln

Civil Service

T219

GE born for Mining Inc.

Zara joins the game as Lincoln's vassal
Each city has 1 warrior defending
(that's because the 2nd warrior goes roaming immediately.)

I think I just learned something...
I DoW'd Zara and of course also got war with his master, Lincoln. However, it looks like I did not get -1 declared on our Friend for Lincoln!

I should add some pictures, but here's my progress on the vassal creation...
Captured 3/4 Zara and gave them to Justy.
so Alexander was created.
Gave Zara a 'permanent' home in a size 1 city I got from Darius.

T220

Paper

T222
Next, I"ll get Linc to create another vassal and then gift a size 1 garbage city to the new AI. After that, I can wipe that AI and Zara off the old Russia island and start clean. It's working like a charm.

GS born - bulb part of Edu

T223

Education

T224
War on Roos

T225

GS bulb +6525 PPress

Roos builds AP in my religion. My monastery gets +2h
Vicky builds Zeus! That's the ticket to my 'free' golden age (free= 9 colosseums)

T226

Finished Printing Press

 

[WastinTime]

Recalling the discussion on what I can whip in my slavery window and hold that overflow until I can drop it into a mining exec.
I couldn't think of any buildings I can use and military and settler's hammers decay.

... for the first Corp, Mining, usually the city that just got mining spread has to immediately build an exec, so it hasn't had any time to prep mining-boosted OF. And can't do slavery OF unless I save up from 30-40 turns back like I said.
Between mining and sushi, my cities will be wanting to complete factory/coal plant so I can't use those builds to try and get a chain of max OF of organic hammers. (Coal Plant can't be started until the factory is done.)

....you checked settlers decay at turn 21 just like military? Grrr. I feel like a good option will present itself. I'll put this on the back burner.

Well, 2 good options did present themselves.

1) With the AP built, I can now whip 240h temples. Buddhist only tho.
The +1 happy might be useful some day when sushi makes my cities huge, but the real reason is that with the AP, buddhist temples get +2h, so they pay for themselves.
240h is a great number too:
- For a forge-city, where 2 pop = 225h, it means I can put 14h or less and 3-whip for max OF.
- 240 is large enough to hold a double OF. So whip something (maybe forge or military) OF that into a whipped temple.

However, only 25 cities of my 40 are buddhist. (oh btw, I have 40 cities now. T225)
And 9 of those are GPfarms that will not whip in the slavery window.
So only 14 cities can do this temple plan rt now. Fortunately, practically the entire world is buddhist except English so I should be capturing more temple cities. I even got a random event that I didn't bother to mention that spread budda to 4 of my random cities, so Russia got some.

2) What about the 11 non-buddhists?
Colosseums of course!
Also 240h. Also provide happy which might come in handy. And, if you've been paying attention, they pay for themselves because I get a free golden age for 9 of them (sports league quest).

To make better use of temple whips in my GPfarms, I'm probably doing a 2nd slavery window after the GS for Biology T266, so most of my GP farms can whip.
This 2nd, later slavery also means I won't have to worry about hammer decay. I could whip military then, but I hope I don't need any more by then. It will be the perfect time for settler whip overflow because I need to settle all the coal/iron/copper. OF from settlers is bigger because you get the organic hammers+food added to the 90 base. Also settlers are big enough for double overflow. Could be 250 or the full 300h overflow if I have mining hammers. Keep in mind tho, the goal is usually to produce an exec the first turn a city gets spread, so the settler has to be already resolved pre-mining-hammers in many cases.

Note: I don't think I need the kremlin. Or at least I shouldn't need to rush build it. I may want it for space parts.
Also means no need to get Communism before the trifecta : Railroad, Medicine, AssemblyLine

Note: research doesn't collapse just because I drop out of caste. Most cities can still work 2f5c water or 1f5h2c workshops. Caste is important for getting GPP, but now that I would have Biology bulbed. All I need to guarantee (with another visit to my spreadsheet) is that I can still get the final 4GP.

 

[WastinTime]

Now that the whip plan is clearer, I need to get the details in each city. Actually, it's 2 completely different plans for the 2 slavery windows.
Cities have to prep the builds and be ready for the short time in slavery.
It's going to be complicated. Here are my thoughts:

Window #1 T238-243
Wonder Bread Economy is not dead. Dump massive OF into Taj.
should I do a 2nd wonder? which one? Something the AI would complete. Chichen? Sistine? or do Hermitage myself?)

All non-GPfarm cities will produce a double whip OF and prepare 1 chop if available.
Every. single. turn. Until 1t before GAge #2 ends. I'll drop 500-750h into Taj in a different city.
That means I can't organically build Taj to completion. It will need about 6 chops. (Boston has like 13 forests.)

Now that I'm running the 2nd GAge non-stop--straight thru the slavery window, GAge #2 ends T263, so Wonderbread can only store up T239-261, 23 turns.

What an awesome coincidence that I have 14 temples and 9 colosseums planned (total 23)

Let's assume realistically and conservatively 500h per turn on average for 23 turns.
11,500 to carry me thru GAge#3

I'll need to capture Zeus before the 9th Colosseum resolves (aim for ~T255)
This brings up a new thought.
GAge#3 will now be the Sports League one, so I don't even need GPs for the GAge until #4. Maybe I never need communism. like ever.

a few turns after Taj...
Window #2 T266-271 (tentative)
Whipping forge, settler (in forgeless cities obv)
Otherwise, whip ???TBD, settler

I chose 266 because Biology is done 265. But maybe I don't need Bio until 270 for example. It's not on the Mining Inc Beeline. Although it is nice to have the extra food and the National Park.
Anyway, my point is: This whip window could be moved earlier. Like say 260. Why would it need to move? If by some miracle I can get all the way to mining this early, I would need to prep the overflows for execs.

 

[elitetroops]

Still following with great interest! Seems like it's all going according to plan.

I'm sure you had some schedule planned when you set out to launch/land a spaceship in the BCs. Can you estimate where you are at the moment in relation to that schedule? Ahead or behind, by how much?

 

[WastinTime]

Still following with great interest! Seems like it's all going according to plan.

I'm sure you had some schedule planned when you set out to launch/land a spaceship in the BCs. Can you estimate where you are at the moment in relation to that schedule? Ahead or behind, by how much?

Glad to hear I didn't lose all my audience.
I feel like I'm slightly ahead of schedule for Corporations which should mean that BC launch is still very likely. BC landing (meaning launch 30 turns BC, T319) was probably not possible. I imagined maybe it was, but I wasn't able to keep the slider at 100% all the time like I dreamed. WBE only has so many souls available to sacrifice for gold. Maintenance is a bit higher that I expected. A flat map would help out there. Having 2 AI isolated on the other side of the planet costs a bit too. And the AI is not being perfectly helpful (no free Philo or CoL, free Feudal would have come, but 10 turns late)

 

[WastinTime]

Whip plan (for t238 - 243)

Cuzco (capital)
needs to grow to maximize trade mission gold and it's the HEpic city, so it want to keep working tiles, not whipping.

Hamburg 7
forge 1, coless 3, chop

Oporto, 7
knight 1, colles 3, chop

Chicago, 6 (no forge, no chop) should skip this city. Too small
Temple 3

Berlin (former GE city)
lighthouse 1, temple 3, chop

Thess no forge, no chop
knight 1

Munich, 9
knight 1, coless 3

Adrian, 7
knight 1, coless 3, chop

Istanbul, 7 (Moai--would rather not whip, but...)
trireme 1, chop

Ankara, 6
temple 3, knight 1, chop

Gems, 7 (no forge)
coless 2, chop

Boston Taj city
rax 1, knight 1, 6-chops

MachuP, 10, no forge
forge 2, Coless 3 (or settler, colles)

SE Isle, 6
cat 2, lighthouse 2

N.Seafood Isle, 9
forge 2-no OF, colles-6 3

S.Seafood Isle, 6
cat 2, lighthouse 2

HorseSushi, 9
forge 2, coless-7 3

SouthPort, 6
coless-8 3

Ica, 6
cat 2, lighthouse 2

Moscow, 7
forge 1 no OF, Temple 3, galley 1, chop

Darius's old cities...
Ecbatana, 9
forge 2, temple 3, chop

Susa, 8
forge 2, temple 3, chop

Pasar, 7
temple?, forge?, chop

Persepolis, 7
forge 1 no OF, temple 3, chop

LA, 4
cat 2

So one of my temples will have to be a colesseum since I couldn't come up with 9.

Looks like 22 cities want to put OF into a wonder.

All the MoM, Parthnon, Mids, Paya, NEpic gold is just about spent. Even with lots of conquest gold lately, I will have to survive on further conquest gold and tech trade gold starting ~T228. very little build wealth fits into my plans.
This plan has to wait til after some whips resolve after slavery is on T238.

So starting ~T240: spreading one wonder around in 22+ different cities means I won't see the gold til about T265.

I don't want to go 37 turns with minimal gold and then have a huge gold bomb on T265. Fortunately conquest is full steam ahead and that's helping me survive this time period. How can I improve on this?

So far, I have one partial answer discovered a few posts down.
- Build 2 wonders -
That means 22 cities can transfer all their OF to wonders in 11 turns.
Bad part is I have to build 2 full wonders unless the AI helps.

And again, now I get a gold bomb in 12-15 turns. I suppose I could slow-build one wonder (Chichen) after I've dumped all my OF. Give the AI a chance to come thru for me. So that means I'd be completing Sankore (again, see below) around T250. That means I only suffer from 228-250, 22 turns instead of 37.

I feel like I'm missing something to keep my economy moving better.
Maybe other options will present themselves.
---------------------------------
Let's do some math on what comes out of the whipping exercise.

I count about 50 total chops and/or whips above.
Each one of those on average drops 250h in a wonder.
That's 12,500
But I'm splitting it into two payoffs of only 6,250.
That's not feeling like much gold. I fear my expenses will be 1,000 gpt by then (T250). I'm almost 700 gpt now (now = T225)
Goes up fast when cities come out of revolt...and two of Darius's cities had free courthouses!

 

[Bandobras Took]

Glad to hear I didn't lose all my audience.

Oh, I'm still here. You've just reached a point in the game where I'm absolutely flabbergasted and have nothing to contribute.

 

[Fish Man]

Oh, I'm still here. You've just reached a point in the game where I'm absolutely flabbergasted and have nothing to contribute.

Same...except I don't think I had any idea what was going on in the first place.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

You've just reached a point in the game where I'm absolutely flabbergasted and have nothing to contribute.

Same here!

This Wonder Bread economy is amazing stuff -

Spoiler WBE at work :

That's a Marble / IND wonder generating 4,351 fail gold - or enough to fund my deficit for 55 turns!

 

[WastinTime]

4,351 fail gold - or enough to fund my deficit for 55 turns!

Nothing personal, but you need to get a bigger deficit.

 

[WastinTime]

Major plan adjustment

I just got a huge new idea that changes a lot of what I've been planning.
I realized that my plan I just posted to get Taj failgold is by completing the Sports League quest's colosseums and capturing York--which just finished Zeus.

That means GAge#3 will trigger before Taj is complete.
That means there's no reason to complete Taj yet! It's GAge#4. (edit: or even #5!)
That means there's no reason for me to get Philo or Nationalism yet! Makes me feel a lot better about building Paya.
I just put 2300 into Philo (half researched). Now there is much more time for an AI to bulb it. Could be wasted beakers
I figured I had to get Nationalism in the next 15 turns and wanted it earlier to get a start on Taj. I think instead, since I just bulbed PPress, I could get GunPowder (bulb Chem), RepParts, Steam (I learn where coal is sooner) (I get 50% faster workers!)
The Chem bulb is due in about 8 turns. GunPowder (the pre-req) is only 3t.

But I still want to do the whip plan. I just need a different wonder. I could hope the AI builds Chichen. They often do. (not that I really like them getting that defensive bonus)
Chichen is cheapest at 1500h.
Or, I could do Notre Dame. With me going to war on the whole world, maybe a little extra happy will cover my war weariness.
Hermitage is out cus that's nationalism.
Hagia. I don't have Theo yet, but the AI does (obviously since the AP was built already) With Steam coming, Hagia is obsolete tho.
Sistine (useless wonder and bigger: 1800h)
Newly available University of Sankore? Maybe there's something here. What if temples gave 2h and 2? would I spam temples? Cathedrals? (monasteries are obsolete too soon)
I should so some math on this:
50 temples = 200 bpt (building research). Up to 300 bpt with forge/library. even more after factories, etc.
But it's a 12,000h investment.

Something just popped in my head that concerns temples. After my GPplan ends and I Lib->Railroad, won't I switch to Free Religion? Does that cancel the AP +2 hammer bonus? if you're not in buddhism? Tested: No, +2 hammer stays, presumably until the AP is obsolete (Mass Media)
So temples remain a viable whip overflow vehicle and will likely pay for themselves on top of it.

Another random crazy thought.
95% of the time the AI builds the Budda shrine, but Willy has not yet . That's currently worth almost 50 gpt (plus 2h). I wasn't watching how widespread buddhism got.
Note to self, don't go after Willy just yet.
Here's the crazy part. I have a GProphet already. Spend it there? No, I don't think so.
Hot Tip: capture the holy city and when you see a GPro born, give the city to that AI. The gift is sometimes difficult, but I've done this tactic.

Back to Sankore.
If we assume there will be at least 40 temples by T270, that's minimum 80bpt for at least 50 turns. 4000 beakers! If the game goes 70 turns 5600 beakers.
And that's not counting libraries, observatories, Labs, or ... don't forget... +10% free religion.
Sankore is only 1650h. Compared to building research, That seems like a really good deal. Did I do that math right?
I'm not sure I've ever built Sankore. Have I been missing out?

When I started this post, I was almost sure I was going to do Chichen and hope the AI completes it, but now Sankore is looking good.

Solution/Conclusion: Do both!

 

[WastinTime]

In case you missed it, I added quite a bit of brainstorming to the Whip Plan about 6 posts back.

 

[WastinTime]

Ultra Major Plan Adjustment

You're not going to believe I'm saying this, but WBE might be dead at this point in the game. Time for some devil's advocate (and more math)
Earlier in the game, I'm whipping away angry citizens and one that have to work a grass-forest or some other lame tile.
Remember, I'm in an eternal Golden age and my 'weak', recently founded and grown cities now look like this:




Extra population gets to work 2f5c water tiles. In land-based cities, they're working river-workshops, etc. Those are better than 5c from these water tiles. Think of the Moai city.

I started to calculate:
12,500 gold from my whipping will give me about 14,000 beakers (since I have some libraries)

However, I counted ~90 less population

If you figure the average worked tile loss is 5c (some more some less), that's 450 loss per turn!
One, 24-turn golden age later, I've lost 10,800 !
You may say: "WT, each city will grow back 4 during those 24 turns". True, I've got my 90 pop back in those, but I'm still probably at least 70? lower than I would have been given I have plenty of happies to support more population.

Not done yet:
If you can get an island city or two to 14 or 18 then it starts giving +3 and +4 trade routes instead of +2
And that one island can give +1 to many cities.

Still Not done yet:
90 less population means 810 less beakers per bulb. So when I use four bulbs on SciMeth and Bio, I lose over 3,200 beakers!

I have to scrap the whip plan and start over
whipping is still useful. I need some lighthouses, a few more military so the wars don't stall. But I think the rest has to be trimmed heavily. I should also try to pre-build like 179/180 knight and whip just one population.
I'll have to look for cities with lame tiles.
I'm not even sure that having lame tiles matters now that I'm in Representation there is always a merchant or scientist available for a citizen to work.

I think I have to go back to the Taj plan for a golden age and wait to build Colossems-golden age much later. Maybe build these after Factory/coalplant.
whipping 9 useless colosseums is 27 population.

Note: whipping is still also a necessary evil to get mining execs out. (unless I discover some new math on that too) Maybe just run state property and forget corporations! I hope I'm joking. If that's true, I'll still play this as a corporation game. If I'm gonna do a StateProp game, I'd want to focus on doing it right from the beginning. I could have Communism by now if I wanted it.

 

[WastinTime]

WBE is not dead!

I over-reacted a bit and I re-evaluated.
There's nothing wrong with whipping away 5c tiles for military that you need.
Or for terrace, lighthouses, exec, etc.
Settlers will be needed on the 2nd slavery window to get resources, but I don't think they're needed in the T238 window. Those cities would be founded ~T245 and might be able to pay for their own maintenance, but they won't speed the way to Corps. The massive loss of population is not worth it for Whip window #1

Most importantly for WBE, it's still worth it 2-pop whip an 89/180 lighthouse compared to 1-pop whipping a 90/180. Burning 1 extra pop for 250 is worth it. It would take more than 50 turns for that extra citizen to make up the 250 gold. And if that citizen is working a 1f workshop tile or zero-food specialist, then the whipped city will catch up making it so the citizen you saved never can make up the full 250 gold.

However, it's a horrible idea to whip junk: like temples and colossems.
Or whipping lame Cats just because they're easy to set up at 9/100.

The new whip plan will have to minimize pop loss and crank up the # of chops. I've wanted to keep a few scattered around for the mining spread, but maybe I just have to spend them.

Final note on WBE. It may seem to have lost some of its sparkle mid-game, but it could be revived back to it's full glory when and if the Kremlin gets involved. I'm just not sure I'm on board with the Kremlin any more. Shocking for me to say that.

 

[WastinTime]

Whip plan TAKE II (for t238 - 243)

Cuzco (capital)
needs to grow to maximize trade mission gold and it's the HEpic city, so it want to keep working tiles, not whipping.

Hamburg 7
forge 1, chop 2

Oporto, 7
knight 1, chop 2

Chicago, 6 (no forge, no chop) should skip this city. Too small

Berlin (former GE city)
lighthouse 1, chop

Thess no forge
knight 1

Munich, 9
knight 1, chop

Adrian, 7
knight 1, chop

Istanbul, 7 (Moai--would rather not whip)
chop

Ankara, 6
knight 1, chop

Gems, 7 (no forge)
treb 1, mace 1, chop 2

Boston Taj city
knight 1, 6-chops

MachuP, 10, no forge
chop

SE Isle, 6
lighthouse 2

N.Seafood Isle, 9
nothing

S.Seafood Isle, 6
lighthouse 1

HorseSushi, 9
nothing

SouthPort, 6
no

Ica, 6
lighthouse 2

Moscow, 7
galley 1, chop 2

Novgorod
lighthouse 2, chop

Darius's old cities...
Ecbatana, 9
forge 1, chop 2

Susa, 8 (few good tiles, no river, whip this city)
forge 1, colesseum 3, chop 2

Pasar, 7
forge 2, chop 2

Persepolis, 7 (has too many forests for using 1-2 for gold. Could be a full wonder completed here or a final space part. May need lumbermills if saving for space part)
forge 2

LA, 4
no

Note to self: laying off the whip and growing huge cities means they need MP unit for happiness. Gift away metals to build Q's again?

Now I'm whipping only 26 instead of 88 pop.

20 max OF's +
chopping 21 for gold.
@250 gold each = 10,250
Less than the 12,500 in plan 1, but I save 62 population!

 

[elitetroops]

Hagia. I don't have Theo yet, but the AI does (obviously since the AP was built already) With Steam coming, Hagia is obsolete tho.

This gave me an idea, which unfortunately does not work. If you have hammers invested into a wonder and obsolete it before anyone completes it, you don't get any failgold.

Back to Sankore.
If we assume there will be at least 40 temples by T270, that's minimum 80bpt for at least 50 turns. 4000 beakers! If the game goes 70 turns 5600 beakers.
And that's not counting libraries, observatories, Labs, or ... don't forget... +10% free religion.

Sankore only works with state religion. You lose the bonus in Free Religion. AP is different as it boosts temples of the AP religion, not your state religion. And don't forget Sankore obsoletes with computers.

 

[Pangaea]

Incredibly thorough planning so I have nothing to add. Way above my level anyway.

But I have one query. Do you know if the sports league GA gets an extra turn, like Taj, when launched in a GA?
Also, what if Zeus ends up in a city horribly far away, can you capture it in time?

 

[fjordan]

You surely did not loose your audience, I have been looking regularly if you had started again.

Hammers from AP you do not loose, but I believe beakers from Sankore are lost when you are not in state religion. So you cannot have the 10% FR and the bonus beakers.

The difference is that US (and also Sistine and the gold one) are on your state religion (not fixed), and AP remains the same. In fact, for monestaries you still get the hammers from AP and the inherent culture after they are obsolete, but not the other benefits.

 

[WastinTime]

This gave me an idea, which unfortunately does not work. If you have hammers invested into a wonder and obsolete it before anyone completes it, you don't get any failgold.


Sankore only works with state religion. You lose the bonus in Free Religion. AP is different as it boosts temples of the AP religion, not your state religion. And don't forget Sankore obsoletes with computers.

There you go being clever again. Obsolete wonders. It's a shame that didn't work out, but thanks for testing it.

Sankore: I'm pretty sure temples are off the table now that I've re-evaluated the pop loss needed to get them. So Sankore is out. But good point about the beakers being lost. That makes sense. But as I said, I don't think I've ever built it before, so I could have overlooked that.

 

[WastinTime]

Incredibly thorough planning so I have nothing to add. Way above my level anyway.

But I have one query. Do you know if the sports league GA gets an extra turn, like Taj, when launched in a GA?
Also, what if Zeus ends up in a city horribly far away, can you capture it in time?

I've also been wondering if I get the extra turn for Sports League. I don't care enough to test it. Not even sure how I'd test it. I could probably dig up an old score game that had that quest. I think I get more of these later quests because most or none of the AI have the requirements to trigger it. Like Guns/Butter takes Gunpowder. So there is little chance the quest gets assigned to the AI civs.

We will learn this game about the extra GA turn. BTW, I figured out how I'm going to build the colosseums. Even with 76% dom limit, I can't keep the entire mainland. I'll choose areas with no corp resources and gift them to AI vassals. Before gifting them, I'll whip them down to size 1. To start that process, I can 6->3 whip colosseums.

Zeus: It's actually in a pretty far away city. However, the world is a much smaller place now that I have Engineering for 6 movement knights and a galley chain across the ocean.



I was able to take my super medic from Russia (red, Farthest NorthWest) all the way east (going west requires Astronomy) across the ocean, then across the huge continent to the (dark blue, far NorthEast) Roosevelt in 5 turns. And this is a 2 movement medic, not a 3 mover.

Also note: In order to get 76% dom limit, I need to conquer all of the original AI on the map, including Mansa. So it doesn't really matter where Zeus is, especially now that Sports League is GA#5 again instead of my idea to make it GA#3.

For the record, Zeus in the the farthest South Vicky city on the mainland (not her islands)
It's hard to see, but Vicky is the East 1/3 of the Orange. Willy is the Western 2/3 of (slightly darker) orange.

Only 4 AI remain that I have not beaten down. Roosevelt has just 2 cities left on the mainland and I ambushed his stack on flat land.
If I work fast enough, the only longbows I'll see are Mansa's and I think almost every city he has is on flat land. I've rolled out a stack of Accuracy-Trebs already to reduce losses in the Dutch/English wars. To get 5xp Trebs, I used my recent GG and settled it into Cuzco (my capital/HeroicEpic) Now it makes 7xp Knights too.

Recall my first GG is the super-medic with morale (+1 move), free upgrade from Quechua to Axe, now Mace
2nd GG is a super-galley (6 moves) I've gotten good use out of him. Never idle.
I often go for a 2nd medic, but I think I can do without.
Another use I like is to make a 2-movement Treb so it can keep up with the knights. Kinda wasteful, but for a 5th or 6th GG. Why not.