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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Problem with that is you'd need a huge stack of workers. 15 turns just for 1 farm.

    Correct, this gives me several more turns of non-starvation.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Turnset Report T246-251
    Vicky war

    T246
    DoW Vicky
    Ambush (what's left of) her stack after she took a Dutch city.

    move my units in her culture to capture next turn...

    T247
    Doh! Vicky 4-pop whips the Chichen to completion. Her 4 big cities are now 75% (with walls)

    Luckily she's very under-defended. Like 3-4 defenders per city. Mostly axe, archer. Very few spears.

    T248
    Replaceable Parts

    T250

    I move in on Chichen Itza with no trebs.
    It only has Axe and 2 archers. I can get those at ~90% even with walls.

    T251
    That makes the other cities much easier after bombarding. >95% for each defender. I lose a 0xp treb at 60%, but probably worth the sacrifice. Then, when Vicky is wiped off the mainland, I lose a 96% battle cleaning up a wandering sword.

    The only two AI left with any power are Liz (out in the ocean) and Mansa. Both have longbows now but not Pikes, or Elephants.

    Mansa will be tricky (and fun) because he has 3-5 stacks. Probably 30 units total swarming the Dutch. I'm going to watch and wait for a good ambush. Hopefully many will die on the last big Dutch city with one hills-longbow (among other defenders). I doubt it tho since Mansa has like 8 cats.
    Tricky part is being able to defend my cities bordering Mansa and any others that will have his units teleported close by.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Late-Mid-Game Planning

    Whenever the game feels like it's in cruise control, I figure I'm doing something wrong.
    Last time I felt like this, I stopped and re-evaluated the slavery timing, all the planned whips, the wonders for failgold, etc.

    I'm going to think about what's coming up and see if there are any changes needed now. It's T248
    I recently surpassed 50 cities and 50 workers.

    Research
    I'm doing over 2000bpt. That's almost 2,500 final-bpt (after 20% bonus)

    With Chichen money for now and Taj coming in about 4 turns, I can foresee my research...
    Steam (7), Econ (1), Steel (6), Constitution (4).
    At T266, that only leaves Corporation and Liberalism(RR), but I might be out of money.
    So Mining Inc should come in anywhere from T270-275! My goal was before T280. I've never had any corporation that early. Even when I was focused on only sushi (the easier one).

    After Mining Inc: AssemblyLine
    Biology bulb scheduled for T273 then I need to almost immediately get my hands on Compass--cheap (that's a discussion for another post.) Then I need to get Optics. Probably self-researched :(
    Finally Medicine. I'd like to have sushi by T290.

    Speaking of the T273 bulbs: It's 4 bulbs (2 sci method, 2 biology). I delay SM because I don't want to obsolete the Glib, monasteries and Parthenon. My workers need to swarm the National Park preserves (unlocked with SM). I'm talking 30 workers. I'll complete Biology 274 or 275, so I'll need a plan to whip-OF or chop the National Park then. This wonder was very important in the past. I may have to re-evaluate its worth. Maybe I'm wasting too many resources creating it? Will all those specialists in one city produce a GP? yes, but when? and for what purpose? If not a useful GP, then the Park is only giving me beakers from, let's say 16, free specialists. That's 96 x library = 120:science: per turn. So for 60 turns, that'd be 7,200 total before the end of the game. 120 bpt seems like a drop in the bucket when I'm doing over 2,000 bpt now. And 7200 total is not even one GS bulb. The real value comes if I, for example, bulb Computers for 15,000-20,000 with one GS. But even that is just one turn of research. I should be doing 20,000 bpt near the end of the game. I'm thinking out loud here. Moving on.

    Corps
    I need to figure out where the HQ's will be.
    Make sure I have the roads in place so execs can move in 1 turn.
    Figure out how to build each exec in 1 turn.
    I need a plan for the spreading of execs (city order) so I can do 5 per turn and they cover the mainland first, then my boat network has to be ready to spread to the islands.

    Lumbermills ?
    I just got access to these with RepParts. I've considered them useless, but maybe they'll come in handy in a couple cities. These would be the cities that finish the final 3-4 space parts. Those need to be built so fast that they need forest chops.
    They only provide +1 hammer and then you need to build a railroad to get another +1. That makes grass and plains forests: 2f4h and 1f5h respectively. Where workshops would be 1f5h and 0f6h. Note: that's only in caste.
    So maybe lumbermills aren't so bad. In fact, if I need to be in slavery, they could be better. I'm not sure I have the worker turns to waste on that many railroads tho. I think I'll put 7 in Boston (just chopped Taj there) and 13 ! in Amsterdam (spaceship engine?). This is an example of being in cruise control since I've been starting or about to start workshops on these forests.

    somewhat related to this...

    IronWorks

    I haven't played space in a long time. IIRC, I like to chop one engine (Amsterdam, above) and use the IronWorks city for the other. I also put Apollo there. So maybe Boston (also mentioned above) still has enough forests left for an engine with IW.

    (update: Amsterdam, the IW city needs to chop some of those 13 to get IW going. Some other forests are shared. We'll see how many are left after corp spread.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
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  4. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    It's T250. 1000 BC. less than 100 turns to go!

    I have 62 cities and, coincidentally, 62 workers. I was able to add about 17 workers lately after a bit of a dry spell. The Dutch had 10 workers around his last city. I gathered 7 of those, but the last 3 are hiding. I'm trying to trick them into coming out to mine iron, but they didn't fall for it.
    Building mostly workshops everywhere.

    I'm doing over 2100 base-bpt at -650 gpt.

    Steam Power is due T255, but might slip to 256 because I think I want a couple extra turns of chopping into Taj before I trigger the failgold. That way, I'll have enough to get to Mining Inc. I'd like to find a way to also have enough $$ to get to Assembly Line and Medicine ASAP after Mining. Conquer gold would be about 2000:gold: if I can kill both Liz and Mansa within 20 turns. Think how much faster/easier it will be to play with no wars going on. Just the tedious exec spread and worker management.

    World War
    I'm not sure I ever explained the grand war plan. I didn't want to spoil the surprise or start talking about it too early when the focus was still on WBE. If you hadn't figured it out after the domination limit discussion, the plan from turn 0 has always been to conquer the entire world before Mining Inc. All the original AI need to be dead to have 76% of the land.

    I have 38% of total land. Surprisingly low considering I have almost all of the mainland. Mansa and even Willy still have large areas. Many of my new cities have not come out of revolt and popped borders so I could be at 50% pretty quickly. Dom limit is up to 54% and should be 60+ soon enough for my expansion plans. I'm thinking I can keep almost the entire mainland and just give away cities that have no corp resources and/or particularly bad land. I was too lazy to count the tiles and realize that it's under the dom limit. I thought I'd surely not keep Vicky's lame area or Mansa's rotten land, but they're both looking better all the time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Exec Spread Plan

    Here's how I approach exec spread. On one landmass, execs are born and must move and spread on the same turn. Therefore I spread to all the cities on the mainland first. The spreadsheet doesn't show the islands, so 'just' 57 cities I could have started anywhere, but the capital seemed like a nice central location. The HQ has to be able to put out 3 execs in a row. All you have to do is make sure there are 5 execs being built every. single. turn (after the 3-turn startup building : 1 exec, 2 execs, 4 execs)


    Then, when you see you can do 6 execs in one turn, you simply delay one of them. Which one? easy. Look for the city with the least number of cities in chain of execs depend on it. For example, Chicago (column 3) is ready to go, but delays 2 turns since all it does is spread to NewYork->Seattle and then dead ends.

    I don't spread from the pink cities. They could be too small or forest-less, or just nowhere to go. In the case of Orleans, it's my NatEpic city and I don't want to whip what. Lisbon (Glib city) can manage one exec because I saved 2 forests; i.e. I don't want to whip there either.

    Cities with (r) means that a road(s) is needed.

    The two gray 'new city' cells means I have to build a settler. The new city sites have at least 2 forests, so they can make an exec even if the city was just founded.

    Spreading to new islands takes 2 turns, but if an island has more than 1 city, then only one exec comes from off-island. Other spreads are internal--1 turn.
    Ideally I can find cities that can do 200hpt and produce most of the island execs without whipping/chopping. They have to be 6 tiles from the coast so the exec can board a boat-chain and spread the next turn somewhere on the planet.
    Spoiler finding 200 hpt city... :
    We're clearly pre-factory here, so with only a forge, a city would need 160 raw :hammers: to get 200 hpt. Let's assume I can get 45h from Mining Inc. That leaves 115. No way a 'normal' city can do that. So that leaves 2 options:
    1) Bureaucracy Capital (needs 70 non-mining hammers--like 14 workshops. Tough)
    2) IronWorks city (only needs ~44:hammers:, but I have to build the 2100h IW very fast. Probably leaving few forests in the IW city for a late space part (engine). The city I was targeting IW for is pretty far of out the way and would need a lot of galleys to make the chain. Need to re-think IW city.

    Hold on...
    Execs for islands are not being produced until 13t after Mining Inc. Therefore, I could have factory/coal plants in the earlier Mining Inc cities with little/no whipping. Looking...
    - Cuzco is exactly 6 tiles to board a boat :thumbsup:. The only reason I wouldn't want to do it here is the HeroicEpic is here. I'll have to make this one of my island-exec cities. I'll just try to do as few as possible here.




    Although I determined that Nationhood saves me so much upkeep money that it's better than Bureaucracy, I will likely switch to Bureau for 5t so Cuzco can put out 3 execs in a row easier.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  6. fjordan

    fjordan Chieftain

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    Funny comment about being "too lazy" to count tiles and then seeing another very detailed planning for execs :).
    My question is, why do you need mining execs in every city? There are only so many space parts to build and they do start to cost quite a lot of money, in spreading and in upkeep. Do you even have enough gold for that? And for island cities, that you presumably will use for science (specs) it may mean Sushi failures too.
     
  7. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Excellent, logical question. Shows you're paying attention.
    I especially like the detail of sushi spread failures caused by Mining Inc being present.
    However, I'll just have to roll with the spread failures. My end game is going to be even more insane and game-changing than the Wonder Bread Economy was. I want Mining Inc in every city. I'm using it not only for space parts, but mainly for build research. This alone is capable of 10,000 bpt :eek: (45h w/factory+power is 90 hpt. Multiply by 110 cities = 9,900 bpt.)
    That doesn't even count my workshop, mine, etc. hammers.

    As you can see by the exec spread plan, I quickly have Mining in ~60 cities. There are too many turns left in the game to stop investing. I feel that any new exec + cost to spread will more than pay for itself. It will take only another 20 turns to get the 50 islands--putting me around T305. It may make sense to settle more cities and spread to say, 150 cities. I could squeeze more onto the mainland which can get exec spreads twice as fast as islands. I'll have to do the math.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  8. nocho

    nocho Chieftain

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    Could you share your thoughts about your Wall Street timing? Is it going in your HQ straight after the first 3 execs or do you have time for (part of) it beforehand? Do you have the banks in place already? Can you even extract wonder bread from it?
     
  9. Lennier

    Lennier Chieftain

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    Wall Street doesn't have a hammer multiplier, so I'd think it was a bad candidate for Wonder Bread.
     
  10. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I'm getting a lot of great questions that I can't answer without explaining my grand strategy for the end game, so I guess it's time for that. I also need to post my Whip Plan for the next slavery too, and that can't be properly explained without knowing the Big Picture. So prepare to have your mind blown later today.
     
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  11. rah

    rah Warlord Supporter

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    hard for it to be blown much more than this thread already has for me.
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    :devil: End Game STRIKE Strategy :devil:

    WBE made me rethink what improvements to build, the research path, which tiles to work and play the game in a very different way. Well that's nothing compared to this. This changes almost everything you'd normally do in a corporation space race game.

    It all starts with allowing your empire to go on STRIKE.

    First off, what are the rules:
    Your sliders are forced to 0% (meaning you must run 100% wealth)
    When your'e negative gpt, an increasing amount of units are killed each turn (0, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, etc.) So on turn 50 of the strike, 25 units are killed. Doesn't sound like much, but you've sacrificed 600 units by now.
    - it doesn't matter if you're -1 or -20,000.
    - One MP unit per city is immune to being killed off.
    - settlers are immune
    - boats containing units are immune (note: a boat carrying a knight, for example, will die. The knight is not immune and then once it's dead the boat is too)
    Therefore a boat containing a settler is completely safe.
    - Units that were just born are immune for one turn (so if you weren't trying to spread to islands, your execs could survive to spread to another city <6 tiles away.)
    update: Units in neutral/enemy territory are disbanded before others.

    Not rules, but other minor consequences are:
    - You can't trade your gpt for resources when you're negative.

    How to play in STRIKE
    You get all your research from scientists and build research

    Once the idea STRIKE economy sinks into your brain, you can start to think of all the things that can be done differently:
    - Wonder Bread Economy is essentially over. We're not generating wealth for research any more.
    - no one has to build wealth. Right now, 95% of my cities are doing that.
    - banks, WallSt are all useless
    - market, grocer: useless except maybe for the +happy + health
    - courthouses only provide +2 EPs, otherwise useless.
    - Library, Univ, Observ, Lab: +25% only affects scientists, not 'build research'. They could pay for themselves but not as important in a non-strike economy. I'll need to do the math. (Observatories are still required in any city that wants a Lab for space parts.)
    - windmills, with +2c electricity doing nothing for you, are not a good idea. Use mines.
    - watermills, same. Just use workshops instead
    - cottages are just bad food tiles. That's why I built zero.
    - a grassWorkshop is just as good as a riverGrassWorkshop. I've been focusing on river workshop while I'm still in a non-strike economy.
    - Don't need to run Free Market for -25% corp costs. Could stay in Merc. Or, Environmentalism? for +6 health? something to consider. Enviro has +25% corp costs, but again, we don't care anymore.
    - You can connect 100's of sushi and dozens of mining--Basically every one you can find. Especially the mining.
    - working a coastal tile (2f5c) is like working a 2f grass tile. All of the 5c goes to wealth and is lost. better off working a scientist.
    - I even have to ask myself, if I'm getting 40-50 food per turn with sushi, do I even want to work the seafood tiles? or just go all scientists?
    - Not that you would, or more precisely not that there's anyone with resources to trade, but if you give any gpt for resource trades before the strike, the trades won't cancel, and you don't have to pay for them.

    How to handle units dying.
    1) let them die. You keep your MP for happiness in each city. However, workers die.
    2) to save the workers, you need to build military sacrifices.
    :devil: Move those military out of your culture so they're picked to die first.
    Details on units sacrificed to strike.

    :devil: But wait! How can you spread corps without money?

    Trade tech for gold? yea, but No
    The size 1 population AI civs I left alive are likely at 0 trade gold even if they have money in the bank. So this may work for the game you have planned, but not my game.

    Wait to start STRIKE until after corp spreads are done? yea, but No
    I'll probably wait til Mining is spread (need to do math again), but if I can get 100 seafood, expenses are going to be through the roof once sushi starts going around.


    I'll need something like 300gpt (update: exactly 250gpt) to spread 5 corps per turn.
    Fortunately, there is not just one, but at least four ways to get money:

    1. Wonder Bread. failgold still comes in after your bank acct was debited -20,000 (or whatever) and reset to 0.

    2. Whipping extra execs. aka Exec failgold.
    Note, you can't just put OF hammers into an exec to get failgold because any attempt to do that means you're not completing the full 5 execs per turn. The only way to do #2 is whipping them from 0h.

    2b. Technically missionary failgold is an option, but not in my game. I'm not running OrgRel. (update: circumstances allowed me to run OrgRel after all. I'll use this method some.)

    3. Whipping small units. Like a 59/60 workboat. After factory/power, if you whip that, you get +180h. With say, 50 organic hammers, you be putting 59+180+50 = 289h* in.
    That results in a workboat + 60h overflow + 169:gold:
    And do we have a use for that workboat. Yes! I like the sound of this option.
    * note: even more with Kremlin added. Whips are 270!

    4. :devil: Hot Tip
    You'll never generate exactly the amt of gold you need that turn (without being/going insane). Give any extra :gold: to the 1-city AI you left scattered around the resource-less ice islands. They won't have anything to spend it on. They're like little banks. To make a withdrawl:
    Steal gold from the AI using your passive EPs (from Palace and some AI built courthouses--possibly spy specialists but those take away from :science:)

    When playing 'normal' (non-strike) and having 100 courthouses, this idea worked well, but I don't have the EPs to steal 300 gpt if I skip courthouses. Depending on when I start strike, it might make sense for the first 50 cities to have a ch. If mining inc alone means that a 360h courthouse gives back 50gpt, then it only takes ~7 turns to pay for itself.

    So what will I do this game?
    I'm just figuring that out now while I'm typing this. Seems like a mistake to be running slavery instead of caste (scientists and +1 workshops), so that goes against my favorite, #3, whip workboats.

    exec failgold means slavery the whole time. All the gold is flushed each turn :thumbsdown:

    Wonder Bread needs slavery, but only for a brief time. Then you have to go several turns storing it in a wonder, then build that wonder. Now you have a huge :gold: bomb that needs to be spent this turn or hidden from the IRS in foreign 'banks'.
    So Wonder Bread isn't quite obsolete. Doing this and stealing money back looks like the only way to stay in caste most of the time.

    But I really like the workboats. :hammer2:Of course!
    Just like I save whip overflows to be put into wonder failgold, I can save over-whipped workboats. Then build research and only
    produce 2 workboats per turn for ~320:gold: per turn. I think that's it. One drawback is that I need the workboats earlier and they need to travel before I get my sushi resources. I'll either have to slowly gather the final seafood or just build workboats and burn them.

    Could I use Catapults Explorers instead of workboats?
    update: No, cats can't be built after Steel (if you have Iron) and Explorers get disbanded after execs (and empty boats)

    Spoiler :

    Doing a 'small' military unit instead of workboat means I'll have something to sacrifice to STRIKE. Explorers are the smallest if I have Iron connected. Cats will work until Steel and IIRC, longbows are obsolete with Rifling, but both are 20h larger than Explorers

    Math: 79/80 Explorer. Whip for +180. Let's say it's in a workshop city that does 90hpt with mining. That's 349h.
    Result: Explorer + 80h overflow + 189:gold: (more than a wb, but only in a more powerful workshop city)
    Worst cases: 78/80, whip +180, +38hpt. So 136:gold: in a crappy island city.
    But if Mining gives say 44, then I can only prep it 46...
    46/80 (whip) +46 = 112:gold:

    :devil: You may recall a similar strategy I explained to squeeze more out of Quechua/Axe overflow. Adapting that would look something like this:
    - Prepare a 99/100 Cat and 79/80 Explorer
    - The whipped cat gives 169:gold: (see above)
    - But then the whipped Explorer gives 289:gold: because it has +100 from Cat overflow.

    :devil: Hot tip: Give away all your metals (before mining Inc or in a non-mining Inc game). Then you can build super-cheap Quechua! All the way up until you get Rifling! (or are they gone with gunpowder?--need to test). Note: This doesn't work with warriors, only the magic of quechua.


    So workboats are the answer for cheapest late-game sacrifice. But in order to keep them alive for fishing nets, I'll need to have some cheap units built before they're obsolete. I also need something for my non-coastal cities.

    Spoiler Rambling notes :
    Cristo Redentor allows me to run slavery for just 1 turn and back to caste, but is it worth the cost to build? probably not. It more useful in games where the GAge ends.
    I love Kremlin so much for solving this :gold: problem and I've always built it in previous games. One time before corps and then just a couple turns after. Not only is there a hammer cost, but the big issue is the cost to research Communism. If you get a Mansa that's researching faster than mine, the AI loves to research it. But you can't get them started on it until you get and give them Liberalism. So, you'd probably want to get it sooner and maybe Lib->SteamPower


    Here's where the discussion started Kaitzilla opened the can of worms on STRIKE during our 10 Million+ score games. Ok, 11 million for Kait :spank:. I had been planning a strike too and already done a small one in the past, but this pushed the idea to the new extremes I described here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2018
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  13. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Uh oh, STRIKE economy!
    Wastintime is going all in. :D

    It is super dangerous if not meticulously planned.
    Crazy that even trade routes with large overseas cities cease to matter.
    Good luck!

    If you are building lots of Quechuas, don't research Rifling (Warrior replaced by Rifleman/Infantry), don't research Military Science (Warrior replaced by Grenadier), and don't research Railroad (Warrior replaced by Machine Gunner)
    And don't stash them inside colony borders, the STRIKE monster won't eat them if they are there.
    Best place is true neutral territory if there is a square of it left on the map somewhere.

    Since you seem to be pursuing Mining Inc., then all the Q sacrifices need to be built before Railroad.
    And all the workshops and chops need to be completed before the Workers all vanish.


    =========================================

    Also, I've used your WBE economy to try and get BC Diplo.
    It really works well!
    Spoiler :

    Sadly my overseas efforts popped 7 huts and NO Astronomy. :sad:
    Spoiler :














    Weird that the current record is only 565AD (Above Warlord Difficulty). :crazyeye:
    http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2018
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Thx for the reminder about being in neutral territory. I was thinking colony borders would be good enough (tho I planned to test it first)

    Due to the fact that I have to have RR and metals connected (for mining inc), I won't be using quechua much. I thought about making a few (by gifting metals), but I don't want to create 600 quechua for 12,000 hammers. That's 12K that could have been used for researching to Mining Inc faster. Not to mention the 600 gpt maintenance on those units.
     
  15. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Yea, I quickly typed that up today, so I expect to add new bits of info and I need to give proper credit for your part in creating it. :satan:
     
  16. elitetroops

    elitetroops Chieftain

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    I've been wondering about the same thing. I suppose fastest UN victory isn't that prestigious and nobody has bothered to put in the effort. I've many times considered attempting to improve on it myself, but I just can't bother to put in the effort. :lol:

    Looking forward to seeing how the STRIKE economy develops!
     
  17. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    Yea, another reason to do Merc and not FM for +1 TR's.
    Normally I'd try to get size 14 and then size 18+ islands to boost internal TRs, but like you said, by the time I get to size 18, they'll be obsolete. I am trying for a couple size 14's and I did capture York at size 14! Instantly gives +3 instead of +2 TR's to other cities even tho it's in revolt.
    fyi...size 18 gives +4, 23 gives +5, 27 gives +6, etc.
     
  18. El Bogus

    El Bogus Chieftain

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    Does this also apply to unmodded BTS?

    Are spies not going to strike?
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

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    I'm pretty sure they do strike. My plan is to not lose any spies or workers by forcing the sacrifice of military/triremes.
    Units in neutral/enemy territory die first.
    But good point! In case I decide to let my workers die. I have to remember that my spies go too.
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Chieftain Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2006
    Messages:
    15,197
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    re-thinking the details on this.
    why put 59/60 into a workboat when that could be 59 wealth. Wealth that could help get me to Mining faster.
    Just put something like 2/60 in (pre-mining) and keep the 57 as building wealth
    Then I get only ~112:gold:. It's 57 less, but I got the more important 57 earlier.

    so then I'd whip 3 wb's instead of 2 to get over 300g.
    This is nice cus we're talking pre-mining. I'm only doing 2h in many islands.

    I can set up the Cat or Longbow whips to pay for sushi spread after mining hammers are available.

    On 2nd thought, that requires a lot of cities. At 3 per turn, I'll run out of cities that have overflow gold waiting.

    On 3rd thought, I may have to spread as many as 10 corps per turn :eek: With the average probably peaking at ~8. That'd be 5 per turn sushi while doing 2-3 per turn of mining to the islands. Ugh, that's more like 500 gpt.
     

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