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Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by WastinTime, Sep 10, 2016.

  1. Kaitzilla

    Kaitzilla Lord Croissant

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    Don't forget, Quechuas can't be built once Railroad is researched.
    Even if they are in the queue and are a unique unit, they all turn into Machine Guns.

    I had no idea Explorers got a boost from Heroic Epic.

    Conquering the world so early, BC Space launch, STRIKE economy. :salute:
    People just don't know how hard it is.
    Every turn faster is like that exploding train from Back to the Future 3.
     
  2. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    On the other hand, at least I *know* that I don't know hard it is. :)
     
  3. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Thx, for what is probably the 3rd time you've posted that here and in the original thread. I think I would have forgotten. I should probably get a few of those built. It will mean getting Steel, Econ, Const, Corp before Liberalism/RR.
    It also means I can't start the couple railroads I wanted for exec spread. I'll just have to send a stack of workers. Maybe only one railroad is needed pretty urgently.

    Maybe 2 Horse archers are better than 1 knight anyway. Quantity over quality. So I could ditch the metals now. That way, if I decide I want some or all back, I can cancel the deals. Mining Inc is over 10 turns away.

    I'm gonna need some cease fires.
     
  4. civvver

    civvver Deity

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    That sounds vaguely correct that overflow could only be equal to the amount produced. Idk for sure though.

    This is a very interesting an unique economy. I'm going to have to go read all your posts though because the biggest thing I struggle with is diplomacy.
     
  5. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    City build plans (revised, abandoned this plan for another, ignore)
    - had to adjust for the fact that I can't count on more than +3h from mining (instead of the 30h I was using). (update: now I'm planning to use +25h for at least the first ~3 turns. Then give away resources. In other words, try to do exec spread without slavery for a short while.)
    - added levees where appropriate (update: considering removing most to save the population for factory/power, but if the city was going to 3whip a settler, why not 4whip a levee...answer: cus many settlers needed to gather resources.)
    - added the use of quechua for overflow hammers.
    - removed use of quechua after T-2, If you try to build one on T-1, where T= the turn you get Railroad, it turns into a MachineGun. Wait, no. I'll be getting Liberalism at end of turn, so I think the quechua are OK on T-1 (needs testing).

    Spoiler :

    Cuzco +75%, 3 execs
    maybe build courthouse and/or bank? No, levee No, can't whip. just do Q's
    258 finish knight
    259 (gift metals) work food
    set up 66/540 levee
    quechua
    ~264 (probably take back corn)
    T266 take Bureaucracy 5t before slavery
    T-1 Q (~50 base OF)
    T+0 Cancel all metal deals for +25h making base-h ~75h.
    exec
    T271 GS born, so: (slavery, FreeReligion)
    T+1 exec (chop 1)
    T+2 exec (chop 1)
    Trade away mining resources.
    (grow)

    Hamburg 25%, 2 execs, no whipping
    258-267 set up 200/540 levee
    T-2 20/30 quechua
    T-1 quechua (maxOF) Last turn to build Q's anywhere
    T+0 wealth

    T+1 exec, chop 90
    T+2 exec, chop 74

    Oporto
    prep settler, build Q's
    T-1 Q maxOF
    wealth
    T+4 whip3 settler
    wealth
    T+7 exec, chop 1 (74)

    Lisbon
    chop 2

    Chicago
    forge 1
    settler 3

    Paris, 1 exec, then more later.
    (needs a workshop or 2)
    prep settler 187/300
    T-1 Q, maxOF
    wealth
    T+4 settler whip2
    T+5 exec

    Berlin, grow to 10
    Q's
    whip? settler

    Thess 2 execs
    whip1 forge
    whip2 2/140 mace? or or settler?

    Constant, 2 execs
    TBD

    Munich (needs MP)
    whip3 settler (ch if too many settlrs)

    Adrian
    whip3 settler

    Istanbul
    whip3 settler

    Ankara
    whip3 settler

    Edirne, work 8 sci now still has GS duty,
    chop 2

    Tiwanaku
    2/60 wb whip, resolve
    28/60 wb1
    settler3

    Gems, 2 execs, start now 14t forge prep
    forge 1
    2 chops (on 90 and one 74h)

    Boston (lumbermills?)
    settler3

    Machu size 14? skip this city?
    ?wb1
    ?settler3

    Seattle
    wb1 for strike gold. (resolve after mining hammers)

    Atlanta (could use a workshop or two)
    settler3

    N Cuzco (workshop/mines here)
    forge 2 (no overflow)
    T-1 Q, maxOF
    wealth
    T+1 settler4
    T+2 exec

    SE Isle, S SeafoodIsle, HorseSushi
    forge2 (small OF into wb)
    wb1
    settler3

    Southport
    3/60 wb OF into wb
    forge2
    wb1 (for strike gold)

    Ollan... (start forge)
    forge1
    wb1 (strike gold)

    Moscow
    forge2 (no OF)
    settler3

    Ecbatana (MM after library)
    levee?

    Pasar, grow to size 6, 2 execs
    (this is cutting it close. forge needs some OF, so whip last second, but must grow back 3->4 soon after for mace whip)
    (could add a farm, but don't want to)
    forge2
    chop1
    (exec, 1 turn resolve with mining)
    mace2

    Novgorod
    forge1
    chop 1

    Maastr
    A.Wat
    forge2
    chop 1

    Susa
    settler3

    Persep
    levee?
    30/80 spy1
    chop1

    LA
    galley1
    wb1 (strike gold)

    Amsterdam, no execs (overflow into IW)
    110/120 elephant1
    110/120 Xbow1 (edit: 7/120 because I have to give away Iron)
    when Steel then IW

    SanFran (giving this city away? if no then forge)
    terrace
    galley2 or forge2
    wb1

    Washington
    forge2
    settler3

    Hague, 2 execs
    forge2
    library3
    chop1
    Nat Park

    Utrecht, grow to almost size 12
    forge2,
    levee5, chop 1

    Canterbury, 2 execs
    75/180 terrace2
    chop2

    Corihua..., Huamanga, Vilcas, Vilcamba
    lh2
    wb1 (strike gold)
    forge

    Middleburg, work 1 coast
    terrace1
    chop1

    Delft (give away, recap)
    chop2

    Nijmegen (give away for a while)
    cult 3t (borders) then give away
    chop2 for exec

    Philly
    forge2
    terrace?

    York (stay at size 14?) No, doing 2 execs now. Will starve to 13 anyway. needs 4?workshops.
    Q
    pre-whipped settler3 (needs 36h base-incl. food at size 8)
    exec
    pre-whipped Terrace2
    + ??

    GiftWestCuzco (stop stealing here soon)
    whip1
    chop1

    Warwick
    forge2
    ??

    Hastings, 2 execs, needs a workshop or 2
    setup 203/540 levee
    Q, maxOF
    whip4 levee
    exec
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Official (Final?) Early End Game Plan

    I was all set to incorporate scout overflow into the plan above since quechua are done after railroad.
    But then I changed everything, again. Long story short, scouts will be obsolete sooner cus I'm doing Sushi before assembly.
    I'm sorry*.
    * not sorry
    I promise this is the last time I change this*.
    * no promises

    I started to imagine what life would be like getting Assembly about 10 turns after mining.
    Most of my cities recently whipped to OF into execs. Many of those were ~3 pop. What cities will be able to make factories? almost none.Especially since they need to be ready to whip OF into sushi pretty soon. In fact, not even half of my cities even have mining spread yet. So 20 turns after mining, let's say I get sushi. Other than maybe the capital and IW city, I won't have any fact/power yet. Any city that does manage it is probably size 4 or smaller.

    Realization: I can't get factory/power built quickly without sushi (population). I will get those buildings faster if I get Assembly Last. Otherwise, I sit around with Assembly Line, putting minimal hammers into a factory, trying to grow. Growing would take ~5 turns for 1 population. Cities could be waiting 10-20 turns before they can whip these huge buildings.

    With Sushi next, now look at where I am at Mining + 20 turns (aka sushi+10). Instead of 1 city with sushi, I have 40+.
    The earliest sushi cities have grown back ~6 population already. Now, I get Assembly and I'm much closer to getting factories whipped than I would be if I had Assembly 10 turns sooner.
    This all feels right: getting both corps spread as fast as possible, then concentrate on factory/power and paying for strike.

    Therefore, plans...

    Research
    Pre-game, I was expecting to get Mining before T280. Hoping for pre-T275. Praying for T269. In my wildest dreams it was T265.
    Turns out, (I'm playing T258 now) I have the money to squeeze out T269 if I wanted. But since I probably want to build a bunch of quechua, etc. instead of wealth, it would likely be T270. However, with my latest Sushi first, I actually have a 2nd critical path in my research--The GP plan--This is where I get Biology for sushi.
    If I switch to slavery to do the mining spread, the GP plan/Biology is delayed 5 turns. I really want the GS born before slavery. But the 2nd GS for Biology was scheduled for T273. :trouble:
    T260 : 3000 gpp
    T267 : 3600
    T273 : 4200

    Back to the spreadsheet!
    Instead of coasting into the GS births with no population loss, I'll starve the last 2 cities:

    NorthCuzco needs to run: scientists (8, 8, 8, 9 ,9 ,10, 11, 10) starve 2
    T266: 3600

    Edirne needs to run: scientists (9, 9, 9, 9 ,9 ,10, 10, 10, 11, 12, 12, 13, 12) starve 2
    T271: 4200. This also allows Edirne to whip since it's GP duties are complete.

    So I'm going to confirm Mining Inc at T271 (it might have slipped to this turn anyway due to lack of funds, so I'm not saying I'm delaying Mining on purpose)
    Update: Although slavery is set in stone--starting at T271, as long as I plan to build execs without whipping, I can start Mining Inc sooner.

    I'll research the rest of Biology in 1 or 2 turns. (edit: and I think I forgot 1-2 turns to finish SciMeth. Oops, no I'm double bulbing it.) Having that extra food is no small thing either. In fact, if I ever decide to switch back and get Assembly before Sushi, I would still want to get Biology first (just not optics/medicine)

    Then (free) compass.
    Optics
    Medicine
    AssemblyLine

    WBE

    I'm going to try to get something out of Angkor Wat around T277. But it might only be 1500-2000:gold:
    That could get me Medicine/sushi 1 or 2 turns sooner.

    STRIKE, Paying for execs

    Now I expect to start strike ~4t after Medicine. (i.e. when Cuzco is done with 3 execs and can create gold). I believe by this time Mining spread will drop to 2-3 execs per turn, and if some islands get delayed, I figure that's no big deal. Only the initial 50 or so cities need mining spread at max speed. My size 1 islands are not as important.
    I'll have to survive until then by gifting mining resources. I may need to gift seafood for those 4 turns after Medicine too (get 'em back by declaring war). Ideally not, so Cuzco, etc. can grow, but it could be prohibitively expensive.

    I still need a solid plan for gold generation. My latest idea, the use of scouts for overflow gold, is now dead. They're gone with Compass.
    I need to be able to do it without factory/power. About 400 gpt average would probably be enough. I think what I want to do is generate a steady, reliable 275:gold: (or whatever 5 spreads cost). Then use other ways (stealing, etc.) to get the extra spreads.

    What can Cuzco do at Medcine+4t ?

    I think it will be size 11 with a levee. Possibly size 13 if seafood stayed connected, but let's go with size 11....
    - Bureau, so +75%
    - I'll probably be whipping again for sushi spread, so not in caste:no +1 workshops.
    That's around 55hpt + 35? mining = 90 base hpt, creating 105:gold: with explorers. Hmm, not enough.

    Let's go best case scenario (railroads on mines, size 13, work best hammer tiles):
    70 from tiles, 45 mining = 115hpt = 148:gold:

    IW city: long story short, about 100 gold.

    So I'm pretty close, I just need a few more sources....TBD.

    Update: 1/5/2018: I got an idea. Workboats are only 60h. Might be able to do something there...probably not with small islands tho.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
  7. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I'm still trying to catch up on the thread. I just wanted to point out that I have used lumber mills in the past and they seem to be useful. They produce almost as many hammers as workshops and they allow you to store hammers by way of chops for late-game spaceship parts. Only useful if you don't need those forest chop hammers ASAP for something else like an executive or some wonder.
     
  8. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Kinda what I was thinking. I'm planning to 'mill two cities. The Taj city still has about 7. The IW city still has 13! forests. I'm a little concerned about all the worker turns cus you have to add a railroad to these (and mines). I feel I'm going to need to spend some time in slavery. Then 'mills/rail are equal to workshops. Mine+rail is a better tile.

    Speaking of worker turns and 'forested' cities. I had also identified a National Park city.
    Long ago, I changed from using forested cities and now I usually pick a mostly-jungle city. There's always plenty of those.

    Lately, I've been debating if it's worth the investment of worker turns and hammers/population to set this city up, and I was leaning towards skipping it.
    But now I'm thinking I'm just being lazy. I'm constantly cutting things that I've determined won't pay off (courthouses, banks, WallSt. universities, Oxford.) Cutting NP is cutting too much I think. One reason I'm coming back around to building the NP is that I'm now planning on getting Biology very soon after mining where I had been focused on Assembly.


    The Hague (formerly Dutch) has 3 food tiles to help grow/whip stuff. The NP is going to want a library. Probably a University, Observ, etc.
    If I chop those 3 forests to rush NP, then I have 10 jungles to start with. 5 more could re-grow.
    Not the best NP I've ever seen, but the best one on this map.

    I'm currently straining this city with 2 exec spreads (an I suppose 2 more at sushi) I'll have to revisit that. I didn't want to whip my IW city for execs and I wanted to use it for generating gold, so Hague took on double duty.
    ...spreadsheet... Ok, I only build one exec in Hague now. Amsterdam (the IW city) will get its spread a couple turns later from another city.
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    More National Park planning:

    SciMeth (double-bulbed) T271. Start Preserves.

    Preserves: Even with SteamPower's 50% worker speed. Preserves are 16 turns! each!
    So 20 workers could do 10 preserves in 8 turns.
    ...thinking, can I do better?....This city is very close to the IW city which needs a lot of lumbermills and railroads, so I should have a ton of workers in this area. Maybe more like 30. That would mean more like 6 turns for preserves.
    I should have around 80 total workers around this time in the game.

    Biology : maybe T273. In other words, National Park has the potential to be built earlier than the preserves. Or another way to say that...I don't need to go crazy trying to build NP in 1 turn. I might even be able to avoid a chop. Probably not though, because NP doesn't have a resource. I'll only get +75% (forge + IND)

    Hague (NP city) will get Mining spread T275. However, I'm currently planning on gifting away resources, so currently no boost here.

    The 3 chops is only 472 hammers.
    2 whip overflows puts me around 800/900. Still short. This city should probably get a workshop to help with organic hammers. I can pillage it later for re-growth.

    Exec plan for this city calls for 2whip forge, 3whip library. That barely does an exec--nothing extra. Fortunately this city has +11 fpt, so I will have a size 6 city left for the NP, maybe a 7th pop. However, very little time to set up more whips. That forge+library have a long way to go. I better start working the 3rd forest.
    What do whip? Amsterdam is doing an elephant and Xbow to get 120h overflow with a 1whip.

    Wait, Xbow?. Crap. Does that become obsolete with Railroad (machine gun)?
    No, neither does mace or longbow

    Oh, double crap. I can't build the Xbow when I give away iron--mace too. Hammers aren't lost, right?
    No, I get them back if I get iron after railroad obsoletes quechua.
    :mad: Figures I built the elephant first. Still need time on the Xbow, but I"ll have to stop. I could finish setting this up after taking one iron back (at railroad)

    So after that panic, I think I'll be able to prep an xbow 7/120 for 2 whip. Elephant too.

    National Park. Check.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017
  10. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    As you said, it is a lot of worker turns but worth it when you want to one-turn those last few spaceship parts. Not only do you have to build the lumbermill and RR but you also have to build a mine (or workshop) over the top of it to within one turn of completion so that on the final turn you can finish the mine (or workshop) and "liberate" the the chop hammers. Since you love to build a ton of workers, I'm sure it will be no issue... :)

    What may be an issue is having 20ish workers on the final turn of the game to actually complete the improvement and free the hammers. Will you have to complete 20 workers on the turn before and finish the improvement before they get disbanded?
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    As you can probably tell by all the changes in direction lately, I am kinda wingin' it since I don't have that many space races in my long history. Relatively speaking anyway. I do have some experience in what you described (workshop 1t short of completion), so that's been in the plan. Here's how I envision the worker problem playing out:
    It could change if I learn there's some reason it won't work the way I imagine it...
    In fact, I'm just now imagining the details...

    Prepping for final space parts
    I'll have to wait to chop till I get Labs prepped for whipping. I don't think I'll be rushing to Superconductors for this, but I can't wait too long.
    Once the Lab is prepped, I can take it out of the queue and build research until the end of the game. Then I can convert the forest tiles to workshops early and let the hammers sit until the end.

    Spoiler Planning whip overflows in detail... :

    update: I was just rambling out loud here. Lots of mistakes and miscalcs. Ignore.

    That's a bit simplified. I'll prep a couple whip overflows and chain them to get the full 750 overflow from a lab. Probably Observatory->Lab. something, doesn't matter... Let's see if 750 is enough...(calculating)...

    :eek: Whoa! I don't need to chain to overflows. Just the Lab is enough. No Kremlin either. Here's the sequence:
    building Explorers at 130 base hammers means after a couple of these, the city is doing 130h + 130 overflow.
    Then you put the prepped lab in the queue and whip it X population, doesn't matter if it's 1 or 4 pop or if you have Kremlin, you get ~90 base overflow.
    So that's 350 (130+130+90) base hammers overflow.
    With factory/power that's 700h overflow. I'm sure I can bump that up to 750. That's the max a Lab can provide (unless I don't have the cost of a lab correct. I'm going off memory that it is 750h)
    When that 750 overflow is added to a spacepart the next turn. If, for example, it's an aluminum part, it would be 1767h added that turn. That's the 375h overflow + 130 = 505. Times 3.5 = 1767.
    Life support is 3000h, so I'll need only 4 forests.

    Engines on the other hand are 4800 with no resource. Fortunately, I don't need to 1-turn these. That would take 16 forests.
    Seems likely I'll whip something else, let's see... Industrial Park (600h)
    Then chain whip an observatory->Lab. (edit: can't prep lab without observ complete) Note that now I've used the 130h explorer overflow on the Industrial Park, so the Lab will need an extra boost from chain-whipping the observatory.
    Even after all that, it's still 11 forests if you want the engine in 3t total.
    To build it in 5 turns total, it would only take 8 forests. Because each turn of 130-ish organic hammers is equal to 1 1/2 forests.

    That enough for now. I'm a little off topic. I already see a problem here. I want the Lab first for the +50% space parts.


    Back to issues with the final chops:
    Since my main forested city is the IW, I will probably need to be done spreading all corps because the IW city was going to be building explorers for overflow gold. Can't do that any more once I chop.

    One problem I see if if I want to do, for example, an Engine in the IW city and then still use it to chop a final part. My options might be:
    a) build enough explorers to keep workers alive til the last part is chopped.
    b) build a few workers at the very end in cities that are 9 tiles away from the forest targets. Recall that a newly built unit will avoid being killed for 1 turn. This sounds pretty good to me. It should mean I don't need the last couple hundred explorers
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  12. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Looks like you have things under control. Keep in mind that if you don't have enough cities within 9 tiles of where the workers need to go (or if some of the nearby cities are also building spaceship parts), a few RRs here and there will help. Lumber mills and mines want RRs anyway so a few well-placed RRs may open up options for where those last-minute workers come from.

    Out of curiosity, how many hours does each turn take at this stage of the game and how many total hours do you have into this game so far (Sid time which may include time you weren't actually playing).
     
  13. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Can you do this? You can't start on lab before observatory is done so you can't prepare any hammers into it. Or am I missing something?
     
  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    9 tiles is already considering railroads. otherwise it would be 5 tiles.

    Once everything is planned out, I can move pretty fast. About 1 hour per turn (that's fast for me).
    But if I'm going at that speed, I'm probably doing something wrong. That's why I stopped after cruising from 252 - 258.
    This moment in the game requires many overlapping plans. The old GP plan is winding down, but still critical. War Plans are extra tricky with Mansa having 100 units. Juggling all the new vassals. Exec spread and strike planning. I'm sure I'm putting in 40 hours leading up to turn 259.

    Stats says 233 hours, but I leave the game running a lot with no play.

    You're right. :thanx:I told you hadn't thought thru the end of the game yet. It was too early for that post, and I started thinking rambling out loud. I got carried away after being asked about the chops.
     
  15. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    For some reason, I thought units could travel 10 tiles per movement point on a RR meaning a worker could travel 19 tiles and then chop. Is it really only 5 tiles??? Bear in mind that I haven't played a game that made it to RR in a LONG time. ;)
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    No.

    No.

    Ok, who wants to tell Mitchum how railroads work? :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2018
  17. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    I just tested it. A warrior can move 10 tiles on a RR with each movement taking 0.1 points. A worker can also move 10 tiles on a RR with each movement taking 0.2 points. So a RR allows a unit to move 10 tiles regardless of whether it has 1 or 2 movement points. I never knew this!!! :blush:

    Even a Fast Worker can only move 10 tiles with each movement taking 0.3 points.
     
  18. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Railroad is a borough in York County, Pennsylvania, United States. (Edit: Ninja'd, good job Mitchum for finding it out! Makes sense if you think about it, the train moves just as fast regardless if it is occupied by warriors or fast workers.)

    What interests me more is how to calculate how far I can move if part of the distance is covered by railroad and part by only regular road. I sometime even made a test game with all possible combinations, but I never remember any kind of general rule for how it works.
     
  19. Mitchum

    Mitchum Deity

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    Some quick testing indicates that any movement involving a road takes 1/3 of a movement point (i.e. R to R, R to RR, and RR to R).

    It's only when you go from RR to RR that you only use 1/10th of your total movement points (0.1 for 1 :move: units, 0.2 for 2:move: units and 0.3 for 3:move: units).

    So a warrior starting on a R can go R to RR (0.7 left) then 7 moves on the RR for a total of 8 tiles.

    A warrior starting on a RR can go RR to R (0.7 left), R to RR (0.3:move: shown left but actually 0.33 left), three moves on a RR (0.0:move: shown left but actually 0.03 left) and then one more tile for a total of 6 tiles

    A fast worker can go 9 tiles via R and 10 tiles via RR.
     
  20. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    California
    Way to bounce back with some well-explained, valuable info, Mitchum :goodjob:
    I have some partial RR's in my future with important cargo (execs). Now there shouldn't be any surprises with the train not reaching the station.
    I'll have to put a link to that post on the 'big board' (post #2).
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2017

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