Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Most people build walls and castles anyway, for the policy bonuses (in vem/gem). They may be useless in vanilla but they're good in the mod. 
Let's start a G&K thread for UP/VE
- Thread starter gunnergoz
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
It seems absurd that rifles (strength 34) and gatling guns (strength 36, ranged attack 36, range 1) are the same tech level.
A ranged attack is massively more powerful than a melee unit. The only advantage the melee unit has is that it can take cities.
I can't help think that ranged naval units and gatling/machine guns need to have lower strength; they should be at a disadvantage in a melee fight vs their same tech level melee units.
A ranged attack is massively more powerful than a melee unit. The only advantage the melee unit has is that it can take cities.
I can't help think that ranged naval units and gatling/machine guns need to have lower strength; they should be at a disadvantage in a melee fight vs their same tech level melee units.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
Just spit-balling here, but am I the only one who thinks Sacrificial Captives should give Faith rather than Culture? Also, I'm going to love to see what you do with your "Opportunity" system now that we have all this added stuff to work with-especially as regards Faith!
Aussie.
Aussie.
mitsho
Deity
It would make more sense, but why fix what ain't broken? Culture works and makes the aztecs play very distinct. Changing it to faith could have very strange results. We may try it, but I would only try it after having fixed/adapted many of the other more direct problems...
Most people build walls and castles anyway, for the policy bonuses (in vem/gem). They may be useless in vanilla but they're good in the mod.
Yes, agree. but now that Walls work differently and are definately worth their building time, wouldn't it make sense to change it back? Especially as we may have to place a few more culture policies that vanish due to the introduction of religion.
I would also really like a "More efficient" active espionage policy in Communism (inspiring dissidents in other countrieS) and a "more efficient" defensive policy in Autocracy (nationalistic tendencies). And maybe one (in Freedom) giving an additional spy?
Also I dislike that diplomatic victories haven't been fixed, you can still buy them... There should definately be a timer for gold gifts, or they should be disabled 5 turns before a diplomatic vote. And cs that ally to an enemy of yours lose all your influence points even if you were good friends to them (shold stay neutral).
Txurce
Deity
Agreed. Changing the Aztecs to faith-killers would make them like the Celts. And I built a castle in a front-line city in my first game, and walls in all my front-line cities in my current game. They are definitely useful in G&K.
Gold is the least efficient way of allying with a CS. It buys less and less influence as the game progresses, and doesn't seem so cheap now that the AI spends its money about as much as it does in VEM. I happen to like the loss of influence of points, in that it makes the situation more precarious.
There are still ways to game Diplomatic Victories, but it's not nearly as easy.
Aussie_Lurker
Deity
I don't entirely agree with this. The Celt's ability only applies to Pictish Warriors, whereas Sacrifical Captives would work for all units (though, if it were changed, I'd limit it to pre-gunpowder units). Also, the Aztec ability is diluted, IMHO, by the Honor Opener!
The Honor opener only applies to Barbarians & stacks with the Aztec bonus. If anything the Celt's Pictish Warrior bonus should apply to all their units to some degree.
- Joined
- Aug 7, 2010
- Messages
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I've found Sword's lifespans are extremely short now because Pikes arrive very shortly after Ironworking in my games - I've only got quick Swords with the GL once, usually I'll tech Iron and CS around the same time because Ironworking is so expensive now. Other points here are well taken and I agree, but I think Pikes should lose 1-2 strength since they'll be even better meatshields in VEM than vanilla (which my the primary use for melee units) because of the defensive bonus.
On most map rolls, it's easy enough to find CSs with around four unique luxuries, so happiness isn't binding (plus bonus resources on Mercantile CS). Only once in a while every CS will have the same lux. There are some diplo penalties, but perhaps they're not strong enough or require the civ to be friendly/allied for it to apply - not likely within the first hundred turns, meanwhile one can buy out a good number of CS.
Also, keep in mind when one marries into a CS a) one gets all units and buildings the CS owns, so you're not just getting new cities (like if you were Liberty rexing), you're getting cities with infrastructure that has been building up since turn 0, like any capital, but no buildings are destroyed (I'm pretty sure, maybe culture buildings are) and b) the ability to immediately annex without the need for a courthouse, so the cities are just like self-founded ones - full gold, culture, science, etc. Give them an hour and I'd be surprised if you don't find them quite OP.
Indeed, that's my main gripe with them as well. I'm not crazy about the choice of crabs either - have you ever tried keeping a crab unrefrigerated for more than a couple days? It's no luxury!
How trading them over thousands of miles in prehistoric times is possible is beyond me (the turtle speculation before the expansion was released holds more merit imo). Coffee, tea and cocoa would have been so much better for realism.I haven't found this to be the case yet, but I've only had a couple conflicts in this time period. Keep in mind that ranged units don't receive defensive bonuses from promotions against melee, so a front-line GG or MG will be easier to take out than a rifle or infantry unit, and with the range of one, you need the GG or MG on the front lines to do damage.
. And spears are quite powerful compared to swords for their costs, tech & resource requirements. Also horses & knights being weaker than swords & longswords doesn't make much sense.
Tarquelne
Follower of Tytalus
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2001
- Messages
- 3,718
New luxuries:
I imagine that they wanted another sea-based luxury and couldn't think past the crab dinner they'd had the week before.
Perhaps "Murex" as a replacement - the little buggers that the famous imperial-purple dye came from. Associated with the source of a valuable blue dye, too.
Or maybe coral?
I don't care for Copper. Sure, an abundance of copper might be "luxurious", but it's not in the same class with Gold and Silver.
I don't like Truffles either. Maybe just because I don't like truffles. Maybe because, IIRC, they had a much more limited appeal than the other luxuries.
I think cedar, olives, amber, cocoa, coffee, or tea would be better than copper and truffles.
Sesame? Camphor? Exotic animals?
I kind of like Citrus as a luxury. It can be preserved for long-distance trade. Though I do favor it more as one of the Mercantile CS offerings, representing a particularly valuable source of fruit or efficient agricultural organization.
(A sea-based mercantile luxury: Byssus. or byssus cloth.)
I imagine that they wanted another sea-based luxury and couldn't think past the crab dinner they'd had the week before.
Perhaps "Murex" as a replacement - the little buggers that the famous imperial-purple dye came from. Associated with the source of a valuable blue dye, too.
Or maybe coral?
I don't care for Copper. Sure, an abundance of copper might be "luxurious", but it's not in the same class with Gold and Silver.
I don't like Truffles either. Maybe just because I don't like truffles. Maybe because, IIRC, they had a much more limited appeal than the other luxuries.
I think cedar, olives, amber, cocoa, coffee, or tea would be better than copper and truffles.
Sesame? Camphor? Exotic animals?
I kind of like Citrus as a luxury. It can be preserved for long-distance trade. Though I do favor it more as one of the Mercantile CS offerings, representing a particularly valuable source of fruit or efficient agricultural organization.
(A sea-based mercantile luxury: Byssus. or byssus cloth.)
gunnergoz
Cat Herder
Citrus should be necessary for ocean voyages IMO. Might be worth a mod: no citrus means your ships have a built-in HP decay per turn on open ocean tiles.
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm find with losing main strength with the defensive bonus. I also think swords could come with built-in city attack bonus.
A good point. Will need testing.
Ah, I didn't realize this. Sounds nasty. Maybe remove the annex option, so courthouses are needed, or just increase the gold cost.
* * *
I'm finding the melee naval units to be much weaker than the ranged ones. Taking damage every time is a really big penalty, I find its only worth having a couple of melee units for finishing off cities that are already bombarded and defensively to block enemy ships from getting to my ranged units. Using melee units offensively is frustrating, particularly in the early game, when you may have to run several turns there-and-back to get to friendly territory to heal, and when they take damage even from attacking embarked land units. In general I don't really like the naval unit design in terms of balance and upgrade paths. There are too many units that have to wait around forever; for example, caravels don't upgrade to privateers, only to ironclads, so there is a huge gap where they are obsolete. And frigates upgrading to battleships just feels bizarre.
Its cool that navies are more important, but I think we can do better.
jacktannery
Prince
I have been playing with TBM/VEM from almost the moment CivV came out, and now that I have G&K I have played vanilla for the first time ever.
To my surprise, I find the vanilla game excellent. Lots of Thal's most important changes have now been incorporated into the base game, the AI is much improved and naval combat now exists. Three things in particular have struck me:
* cities are now much harder to take without combined arms and catapults (which no longer require iron!) are necessary to take cities (and not good for much else).
* Gold is now much more difficult to get in the early game, which adds challenge to fielding an army.
* Research Agreements seem to be fixed; and science is a lot slower than before.
In all, I would say that the devs learned a lot from Thal's VEM work, and took a lot of his ideas to make the game much better. To my surprise I am now considering NOT downloading the new CiVUP when it becomes compatible – although I must admit I really miss some of the UI improvements. The only thing that still annoys me from vanilla now is the 'full heal' promotion – that should really have been removed as per VEM.
To my surprise, I find the vanilla game excellent. Lots of Thal's most important changes have now been incorporated into the base game, the AI is much improved and naval combat now exists. Three things in particular have struck me:
* cities are now much harder to take without combined arms and catapults (which no longer require iron!) are necessary to take cities (and not good for much else).
* Gold is now much more difficult to get in the early game, which adds challenge to fielding an army.
* Research Agreements seem to be fixed; and science is a lot slower than before.
In all, I would say that the devs learned a lot from Thal's VEM work, and took a lot of his ideas to make the game much better. To my surprise I am now considering NOT downloading the new CiVUP when it becomes compatible – although I must admit I really miss some of the UI improvements. The only thing that still annoys me from vanilla now is the 'full heal' promotion – that should really have been removed as per VEM.
Txurce
Deity
I feel similarly, and am very curious as to what the new G&K VEM will change from vanilla G&K.
The "heal" promotion is only 50%, which I found to be okay, because it's a very tough call, especially since a safe retreat is more possible in G&K than in vanilla.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Let's start separate threads for topics about G&K. There's not much vanilla discussion anymore, anyway. Talking about different subjects in one big thread makes it harder to follow conversations. 
mitsho
Deity
Unofficial Patch, yes.
Vanilla Enhanced Mod, no.
Thal's line of priority is
1. UP for G&K
2. the old VEM for the Vanilla version.
3. the new GEM (are we still calling it that?) for G&K.
As stage 1 and 2 haven't been made bugfree, you and I and everybody else still need to wait
Vanilla Enhanced Mod, no.
Thal's line of priority is
1. UP for G&K
2. the old VEM for the Vanilla version.
3. the new GEM (are we still calling it that?) for G&K.
As stage 1 and 2 haven't been made bugfree, you and I and everybody else still need to wait
Unofficial Patch, yes.
Vanilla Enhanced Mod, no.
Thal's line of priority is
1. UP for G&K
2. the old VEM for the Vanilla version.
3. the new GEM (are we still calling it that?) for G&K.
As stage 1 and 2 haven't been made bugfree, you and I and everybody else still need to wait
Thanks for the clarification. The reason I'm asking is because it seems all the fixes in the current version of UP is all bugfixes to UP itself. I can't really see what it fixes in G&K or am I just reading the release info of UP v13 wrong..?
\Skodkim
mitsho
Deity
no, Unofficial Patch does not alter the base game at all. It just changes User Interface, fixes bugs from the vanilla game and adds some more information available to the player.
Vanilla Enhanced Mod (VEM) or the Gods&Kings Enhanced Mod (GEM, get the wordplay) introduces new social policies, adds in the vanguard unit line, rebalances the leaders, wonders and buildings and a whole other stuff.
So in the release of UP 13 there's only stuff that fixes the UI additions to vanilla with the new G&K elements like the two new yields (faith and culture which was not in the yields table), the espionage screens and the new units...
Vanilla Enhanced Mod (VEM) or the Gods&Kings Enhanced Mod (GEM, get the wordplay
) introduces new social policies, adds in the vanguard unit line, rebalances the leaders, wonders and buildings and a whole other stuff.So in the release of UP 13 there's only stuff that fixes the UI additions to vanilla with the new G&K elements like the two new yields (faith and culture which was not in the yields table), the espionage screens and the new units...
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