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Let's Talk About Gaul

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by The Kingmaker, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Since the R&F Scottish civ doesn't include any ancient Celtic features, there's still room for an earlier Celtic civ.

    Gaul is the best option, IMHO.

    For the leader, I'm an unabashed Vercingetorix fan.

    I expect the UU could be the Solduri or potentially their Auxilia cavalry (though the latter needs a better name).

    I've seen talk of the Oppidum as the UB, though I've seen other possibilities floating around as well.
     
  2. Ezumiyr

    Ezumiyr Chieftain

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    Vercingetorix would be a terrible choice.

    He was the son of the family of councilmen (vergobret) of the Arverni, taken in hostage by the Romans. Caesar promised to him and several other gallic noblemen the title of Kings over their people. He never ruled over the Gauls or even his people until he revolted against Caeser because he withdraw his promise.

    The goal of Vercingetorix was to do a revolution among the gallic people to establish new regimes (there weren't any kingdoms there since iron age - just know that "rix" is often the equivalent of roman consules or spartan arkhagetai). This is also the very reason why he failed. The gallic people prefered Roman integration (as it was going to be anyway - the ruling families would be kept in place and benefit from Roman protection, even the druids, despite them having less power, as we know today). Vercingetorix was just a unhappy hostage turned into a monarchist military leader that failed.

    At least Boudicca was indeed the leader of her people. And Brennus, while we aren't sure whether it was a title or a name, was actually a leader. But there are also other possibilities. If we take the Gallic Wars as a source, you have Ambiorix in Gallia Belgica, or the druid Diviciacos.

    But honestly I think Scotland is already nice enough to have. The Gallic people would certainly be another militarist civ, and another ancient civ instead of the much more marvelous and unique ones in the East like the Minoans, Babylon or the Phoenicians... I think I'd prefer to see Ireland or even a Duchy of Britanny civ rather than a made up "Gaul" civilization with a failed revolutionary as a leader.
     
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  3. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I'm well aware of the other leader choices and Vercingetorix's own failings.

    I maintain that Vercingetorix has a "big personality" of the sort Firaxis is looking for in Civ6.
     
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  4. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Well, the Minoans are a no-go due to Linear A not being deciphered....and their territory wasn't even that large. Does Crete even exist on the TSL Earth map? As for the Phoenicians, their leader choices aren't too interesting due to lack of surviving information.
    Ireland and the Duchy of Brittany would be Medieval Civs. I think many people would like a Classical Celtic Civ like the Gauls in the game. We can't really call the Gallic Civilization "made-up" just because they weren't united. They were at least united in language and culture.
     
  5. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Agreed. Moreover, Civ has often accommodated for civilizations who possessed a shared culture despite being politically disunited. Look at the Maya, the Greeks, and just about every Native American tribe they've ever portrayed.

    Ideally, I'd like to be able to play either the Aedui or the Arverni the same way you can play Athens or Sparta as Greece, but I recognize that Gaul is not a likely candidate for the two-leader treatment.
     
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  6. ferretbacon

    ferretbacon Obsessor

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    After seeing what they did with Scotland, I think we can firmly say that they're not a Celt replacement. Scotland is the Medieval kingdom onward.

    For the Celts, I agree that Gaul would be a great choice to narrow down the civ as they've learned to do with the Native Americans. V's specific Iroquois and Shoshone were much better than IV's "Native American" empire. Likewise, VI's Gauls would be much better than V's Celts.

    Personally, I'd love to see a Celtic civ again in some form.
     
  7. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    What elements would you like to see in a Gaulish civ?

    Some part of it should acknowledge the Druids. Perhaps a Druidic Lore UA letting them spend faith on culture or even science?
     
  8. Nalain

    Nalain Chieftain

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    This can be a second basic religious bonus (the one we get first only by faith).
     
  9. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Warlord

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    We currently don't have any unique religious units, so I think the Druid would be a good candidate for this - perhaps an alternative Guru? It could perhaps heal military units as well as religious, or have a cultural or diplomatic effect when present in cities. Would be a bit more interesting than just being part of an ability I think.
     
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  10. Ezumiyr

    Ezumiyr Chieftain

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    Sure we can. The Gallic people spoke different languages, including gallic dialects, but also germanic dialects (in the north-west), basque dialects, and we don't even know what languages spoke some of them... It's funny you mention that we don't know what the Minoans wrote, since the Gallic people didn't write. We only have a few things, like a calendar, some words and names on rings.

    You have to understand: most of the things people think they know about the Gauls are actually stereotypes that are themselves complex to explain. The only thing that makes the Gauls one entity is the complex political relations between the people that lived there. They had very different cultures and languages, but they were all in interaction with each other - and btw those interactions didn't end where the Romans put borders.

    To stay brief, as far as we know, the Greeks and the Romans are the creators of the concept of the Gauls and we don't know what the gallic people themselves thought about that. We only have the vague idea that it is an invention of the druids and that it is a religious/philosophical concept.

    Now, I'm not completly opposed to the idea of a Gallic civ in Civ6, but I'll still say that Vercingetorix would be a terrible choice. He was just an artefact of the Roman conquest/integration - he fought to destroy the political structures of his country and his own people rejected him. It would even be better to pick a Gallo-roman governor.
    Picking Vercingetorix as the leader of the Gallic people would be like to pick Medea as a leader for Greece.


    This being said, I agree that the druids should be important for such a civ in the game. The problem is that we still don't know what they actually did, except that they had a lot of power. Sometimes they are described as priests, sometimes as a kind of Pythagorician order... We know there were some kinds of theatres but we have no idea what they were used for.

    In fact, I fear the Gauls fall in the category of those civs we simply don't know enough about. We have a lot of informations about their way of life (how and where they lived), about how they fought, and some informations about their government and society, but their addition to the game would require a lot of extrapolation and overinterpretation. That's why I think the best thing to do is simply to choose the leader and people we know the most about, like the Haedui. We have a lot of informations about them and I'm fairly sure Bibracte is one of the most famous cities. Sure the name of their leader wouldn't be well known, but if you pick Diviciacos as their leader and say he was a druid I'm sure everyone can relate to that. And it would allow the Gauls to be something else than just another warmonger civ. Thet were also probably the most powerful people of the Gauls at the time of J. Caesar so that wouldn't be a bad choice.

    Or maybe make the Gauls a civ with two leader. In this context, it makes sense to have Vercingetorix as the "evil twin" for Diviciacos, just like Gorgo for Sparta.
     
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  11. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    Ideally I would like both the Aedui and the Arverni to be represented.

    However, my personal preference is for the Arverni.
     
  12. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    I was specifically referring to the Celtic Gallic people. I don't really consider the Germanic speaking peoples in the Northwest (the Belgae?) and the "Basques" (Aquitanians is the better term), or the Ligurians to be Gaulish.
    A lot of the Gaulish language has survived. I don't know if it's enough to create dialogue for a Gallic leader, but the English wiki page has a lot of info for an extinct language.

    As cool as the Minoans would be as a Civ, their language (probably a non-Indo-European one) hasn't been successfully deciphered and I think it never will be. There's no Rosetta Stone for Linear A...where we can compare the Minoan language to a language we already understand.
     
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  13. Havendish

    Havendish Chieftain

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    I don't see a reason not to add Gaul into the game. Significantly different than Scotland.

    A religious unit, Druid, would be awesome for Gauls, or Celts for that matter. Druid being their Civ UU. Healing of troops ability and providing faith and culture bonus for the Gaulish people when residing in cities.
    I'd go with Vercingetorix as leader and make Stonehenge their Unique Tile Improvement - providing faith which can be turned to amenities later in the game (from tourism)

    Of course their swordsmen, not sure what proper name to call them, should be their other unique unit, introduced into the game as Vercingetorix's Leader UU. Faster movement than standard swords.

    Generally, a Spiritual, Warlike and Agrarian culture, the Gauls/Celts.

    If it was up to me, I'd add Gauls under Vercingetorix and Celts/Welsh under Baudicca as separate civs. For the Welsh/Celts, the Longbowman - Welsh invention, would finally be their righteous UU (not an Engllish one).

    The longbow was invented by the Celts in Wales around 1180 C.E. but was not really used by the English military until the 1300s. The longbow is an incredibly strong piece of wood roughly 6 feet tall and 5/8 inch wide. The wood would be preferably yew, which was hardened and cured for 4 years for best results.
     
  14. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    @Havendish
    I would call Boudicca's Civ the Britons instead of Welsh/Celts. The Welsh were descendants of the Romanized Britons. It might cause confusion for some people though, since they think Briton=British. Cartimandua would be another female choice to lead the Britons.
     
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  15. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I think the Gauls are preferable simply because it might confuse some people to have a game with Britons, English and Scottish.

    Or rather, if they did do a Briton civ, I think it would be likelier for them to still just be called the Celts.

    Regardless, I do hope Firaxis doesn't think they've done the Celtic peoples justice with this current Scottish civ. (Nothing against Scotland of course.)
     
  16. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Warlord

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    Welsh wouldn't make since at all. Calling them the Celts wouldn't do any good at this point, since we have Scotland.
    For Boudicca it would be easier to call it the Iceni I think. But if anything I think Gaul would be the best option if they do decide to go down the ancient/classical Celtic route.
    Gaels would be nice but that might conflict with Scotland, even if they focus on ancient/classical Ireland.
     
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  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin My Dearest Doctor

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    My thoughts.

    First: Boudicca can take a running jump into the sea. I seriously never want to see her in Civ again. Ever. She was an interesting person, but the Britons were insignificant, her rebellion was insignificant, and her portrayals have all been egregious. Plus, unlike Gaulish, Briton is completely unattested and only reconstructed from Welsh and the other Brythonic languages.

    Second: I'm not a fan of having Ambiorix. He was Belgae, and the Belgae were a sort of Germanic/Celtic hybrid and not Gauls proper. Even Cæsar managed to keep them separate. I mean, he was very interesting, but he wasn't Gaulish. Vercingetorix really is the best choice.

    Third: Druids are fine. Tree-hugging New Age hippie druids are not.

    Fourth: The Celts were known for their excellent craftsmanship (particularly in iron) and their brutal guerilla tactics. I'd propose a UA based on strategic resources.

    Fifth: For UU, I think the best options are a unique spearman, the Gaesatos, or a unique light chariot. The Gauls were well known for their chariots and for their light infantry.

    Sixth: For UI, I'd propose the oppidom, an early fort replacement that provides culture and gold.
     
  18. Guandao

    Guandao Rajah of Minyue and Langkasuka

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    Firaxis, please hire Zaarin for your design team! :D
     
  19. The Kingmaker

    The Kingmaker Alexander

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    I'd also mention that their quality medium cavalry is a good UU possibility. That or the light chariot Zaarin suggested.

    If not the Gaesaetae mentioned above, the infantry unit could be the Solduri. But we've seen too much of the "Gallic Warrior" trope in previous games.
     
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  20. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Warlord

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    Yes, save the tree-hugging hippies as the UU for the New Age Pseudo-Environmentalist Civilization...

    Specifically, Mineral Resources, since the Gauls were known for their metal-working: perhaps a UA based on extra Production/Gold/Amenity for any Gold, Silver, Copper, or Iron resource in their territory, or simply an Automatic Mine on any such resource, which would give them a fast set of Bonuses in the early game.

    Let's go down the list:
    Light Chariot. - possibly with a Menhir-deliveryman riding shotgun, except that the one thing the Asterix cartoons got right was that the Gallic chariots were very well-made and well-designed vehicles for travel on paved roads, but much too lightly built to survive much cross-country/battlefield travel. The Romans never mention meeting any Celtic chariots in battle until they get to Britain. Not a good choice for a Gallic UU BUT could be reflected in a UA of Faster Travel (All Roads one step higher in effect?) within their own territory.
    Swordsmen/Spearmen - two different beasts, the swordsmen are generally considered to have comprised the 'elite' or aristocracy of the stratified Gallic society, while the bulk of the 'rank and file' were spearmen. Generally, the Gauls were always considered noteworthy for the fast movement of their forces and their ability to surprise an opponent - even an opponent who writes up all the history like Jules C. let slip that the Gauls caught him with his Lorica Segmenta down several times.
    Suggestion: Another possible UA of All Gallic Ancient and Classical military units (NOT Support) start with the Ranger Promotion?
    I suggest what another has already mentioned, let's make the Druid the Gallic UU: a Civ-Specific Guru representing the peculiarities of the Druids, who are described as being diplomats, doctors, architects, and philosophers as well as 'normal' religious priests. Therefore, how about a Guru/Druid who heals military units instead of religious ones and reflects the other Druidic talents as well?
    Druid - Comes with X 'Charges' which can be expended to heal X points in every Gallic military unit it is touching at the time, OR expended in a Gallic city to provide X points of Science OR expended next to a City State to provide an Envoy in that City State.
    -That should give the average Gallic Player plenty of incentive to scramble for a Religion-Heavy Civ, just to get some Very Useful Druids!

    'Oppidum' is a Roman word, and it does not describe the Gallic construction, many of which, from the archeological evidence, were barely big enough to inclose a single farm, let alone any great numbers of people and buildings. Since many of them are either Trade Nodes/Posts or religious/cultural (votive?) sites, I suggest that the Oppidum provides Fort-like protection, but also 1 point each of Gold, Faith, and Culture in the Tile.

    Summing Up:
    Gallic Civ UA:
    Treasures of Gaul: All Metal Resources discovered in Gallic Territory receive an automatic Mine Improvement
    Tour de Gaul: All roads inside Gallic territory are one level higher than normal.
    Gallic Civ UU: Druid: Druids as Guru replacements who can heal military units, provide Science in Gallic cities, or Envoys in City States.
    Gallic Civ UI: Oppidum: a Gallic Fort Improvement that all provides extra Gold, Faith, and Culture in a tile.

    Possible Gallic Leaders:
    Vercingetorix: Furor Gallicus!: All Gallic Ancient and Classical military units start with the Ranger Promotion
    Divitiacos: Druidic Knowledge: Every Gallic city produces a 'free' Druid when first converted to the Gallic Civ religion.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018

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