Level 2 and Level 3 Ideology Tenants

[Enginseer]

Why is it that Level 2 Ideology Tenants are so good to unlock compared to Level 3? With the limited choices at level 2, I wished that level 3 slots could also unlock level 2 tenants instead of having the bad level 3 slots.

On another note, I wish building a dig sites on a city-state's territory was more practical because having a large influence boost can be lost with a really lucky coup or a great diplomat.

 

[Bromar1]

From what Gazebo has said previously, tier 3 tenets are kept mediocre so that the game doesn't devolve into "first to tier 3 ideologies wins."

However, I do believe that tier 3 tenets can be made more interesting without disrupting the balance of the game. There are many interesting ideas brought up in the tier 3 ideologies thread but, unfortunately, no changes have been made. I would really like to see a bit more experimentation with these tier 3 tenets. I feel like the design space for them has stagnated because most games end before tier 3 tenets become a significant factor for victory

 

[tu_79]

From what Gazebo has said previously, tier 3 tenets are kept mediocre so that the game doesn't devolve into "first to tier 3 ideologies wins."

However, I do believe that tier 3 tenets can be made more interesting without disrupting the balance of the game. There are many interesting ideas brought up in the tier 3 ideologies thread but, unfortunately, no changes have been made. I would really like to see a bit more experimentation with these tier 3 tenets. I feel like the design space for them has stagnated because most games end before tier 3 tenets become a significant factor for victory

That would be really nice. Ideas?

 

[Bromar1]

Here's ideas from the other threads and my response to them:

G asked for the Ideology discussion to occur based on Tiers, so I am reorganizing the threads with that note.

This thread looks at the Tier 2 Ideologies.

Freedom

Arsenal of Democracy: +15% production of military units. +10 CS influence with all known CS when you expend GP.

(A)

This is what a good tier 2 policy should do. The military bonus is nice, but the CS influence gives you a new way to use your GP boost from your specialist play to boost diplomatic gains.

Capitalism: 5 specialists in each city no longer cause unhappiness.

EDIT: Changed my vote from an F to an A do to recent unhappiness changes.

(A)

Recently, specialist unhappiness was changed and I find it much higher in the late game now. So this went from a mild unhappiness reduction to a fairly major one, and I think its solid now.

New Deal: Landmarks and Great Person Improvements produce +4 of their appropriate yield.

(C)

This one is ok to me. Ultimately even for a tradition player GP improvements are not that common, but it does also net you more tourism as well. So its a decent one at Tier 2.

Their Finest Hour: +33% CS to cities. Can build B17 bombers.

(A)

At this point in the game, the main threat to a freedom player is from a military attack by an autocracy player. This gives you a great boost to resistance that attack, and the B17 is a great upgrade to an already great unit.

This is a tenant I won't always take, but sometimes its the tenant you really need.

Transnationalism: Each turn, a chance a corporate franchise will appear in a city, +20% to maximum franchises.

(N/A)

I don't know about this one. I don't have a big problem with spreading franchises normally so I don't see the appeal there. The 20% maximum could be good I guess in some cases. Don't have a lot of experience on this one.

Universal Suffrage: +1 happiness to each city, +50% golden ages.

(C)

Its not that the bonuses are not nice, I just don't find freedom players lacking in happiness or GAs at this point in the game.

Volunteer Army

(F)

This is a panic button tenant, so it should be Tier 1. The maintenance free is not that much of a benefit.


Order

Academy of Sciences: Free public school in every city, -10% illiteracy.

(F)

At Tier 2, most of my public school building is behind me, and the illiteracy is worthless.

Cultural Revolution:: +34% tourism to other Order civilizations. Spies steal technologies at double rate.

(Varies)

This one hugely varies in its power depending on who is the other order civilizations. Culture victories often come down to 1 or 2 key civs....if those are Order you are golden with this policy. If they are not, this is worthless.

The double spy stealing, stealing is really hard at this point in the game, I don't know if the double rate is enough to make them competitive again, curious to hear other thoughts.

Five Year Plan: +2 hammer/city, +1 hammer to mines, lumber mills, quarries, and unique improvements.

(C)

A decent one, though it takes a improvements to really make it worth it as a Tier 2 policy.

Nationalization: Corporate Offices function as franchise. Foreign Franchises no longer benefit your corporation.

(N/A)

There is a big question here that I don't know, and it completely affects how strong the policy is. If I make an internal TR between a corporate office and this "franchise" , do I get the corporation benefit I normally get by making a TR to a franchise?

Is so, this tenant is amazing, if not its weak.

Party Leadership: +2 food, production, science, culture, and gold in each city.

(C)

I think it would have fit in decently well in the Tier 1 pool, as a tier 2 its just okay.

Resettlement: Existing cities get +2 people, new cities gain +3.

(A)

For that late game expansion surge, this policy helps significantly in getting those new cities off the ground, more so than Party Leadership imo.

Further, you get growth in your old cities as well, and at this point in the game this is likely stronger growth than the peace land bread or party leadership growth and food bonuses.

Worker's Faculties: Factories gain +3 science and are built in half the time.

(F)

The science is pretty meh at this point, the half hammers is okay but tapers out. To me, if you want to make this one work, remove the coal requirement from the factory. Then at least you can build a factory in all of your great big Ordered empire.


Autocracy

Tier 2

Lightning Warfare: +3 movement to GGs. +15% attack, +1 movement, and ignore ZOC to Gun/Armor units.

(A)

This is a definitive war tech to me. Makes your core units stronger, faster, and the ability to ignore ZOC gives you a big military advantage.

Martial Spirit: +25% attack bonus for 50 turns. War Weariness rate reduced by 50%, razing speed is doubled.

(A)

50 turns at this point in the game is often close to the game. This can help your one key weakness in the loss of happiness from WW. I think this is better a bit later in the game than Lightning Warfare when gun/armor units tend to fall away a bit more but both have good uses.

Nationalism: Reduce Gold Maintenance by 33%

(C)

Compared to the other Tier 2's of Autocracy this is pretty weaksauce.

Police State: +3 happiness from courthouses, +1 happy from police stations. Court Houses build in half time.

(A)

This tenant is a powerhouse way to combat unhappiness from excessive warring. That is its only purpose, but if you need it, it will do the job powerfully.

Syndicalism: Corporate Franchises count double in civilizations you are at least popular with. Does not count against global franchise maximum.

(A...?)

The way I read this, is you can in theory have twice as many franchise as you normally could have. If so, that is super awesome! IF not....well then I have no idea what this does.

Third Alternative: Quantity of Strategic Resources produced is increased by 100%. +10 to all yields in the capital.

(F)

I don't find autocracy players have trouble securing strategic resources. Even if they did, there are so many great Tier 2's for autocracy to compete with here, ones that make nonstrategic units strong enough to take on strategic ones.

Total War: +25% production when building military units, workers construct improvements 25% more quickly.

(C)

Its pretty good, but just doesn't match many of the other Tier 2's. This one seems like more of a buildup tenant, which I think is more Tier 1 suitable.

G asked for this discussion to focus on Ideological Tiers in stead of per type, so I have reorganized the threads to do that.

This one looks at Tier 3 tenants.

Freedom

Media Culture: +34% tourism and +1 happiness in cities with a broadcast tower.

(A)

This defines freedom as a tourism ideology, and is the only thing that makes broadcast towers actually worth building.

Spaceship Procurements: Can buy spaceship parts with gold. Build spaceship factories in half the time.

(A)

This tenant exists for one purpose, to shave off those precious turns at the end of the science victory when its all about getting the parts. For every thing else, its worthless, but for that it can be the game.

Treaty Organization: Gain 4 CS inf per turn with a CS you are trading with.

(C)

Arsenal of Democracy generally does it better. If it was 4 inf PER TR than we are talking, but as written its an ok but not great bonus.


Order

Dictatorship of the Proleitariant: +34% tourism to civs with less happiness. +1 happiness form factories.

(Varies)
As order tends to be used by larger civs, Tier 3 policies come pretty late in general. Further, tourism is not normally their fortay.

But...if you find that key civ you need to convert has less happy than you do (which is already tough with large civs), than this +cultural revolution can net you some of the highest tourism bonus.

I think this tenant is extremely narrow in niche, but sometimes tier 3's are.

Iron Curtain: Free courthouse upon city capture. +50% food/hammers to internal IRs. +3 gold for city connections.

(N/A)

The Nationalization question drives the strength of this one as well. In theory, nationalization + iron curtain could make Internal IRs extrememly powerful....but only if they work with corporations properly (see nationalization).

Otherwise, the corporation benefits of external TRs are hard to give up, even with this strong bonus.

Spaceflight Pioneers: Can build spaceship parts with Great Engineers. Gain an immediate GE and GS.

(A)

Similar to the Freedom tenant, this one comes down to your at the last leg of the space race and need a kick to the finish. The freedom's one is stronger for getting the parts, but this one gives you a GS that may give you some clutch final turns of science you need.

This tenant exists for one purpose, but it does the job.

Autocracy

Air Supremacy: Free Airport in every city. +25% production to air units. Can build zeroes.

EDIT: Changing this from an F to an A. People have convinced me with some strong arguments that for warring players, this is a wonderful and powerful tenant. I humbly ask for forgiveness for ever thinking otherwise!

(A) This gives you incredible mobility in the late game and the ability to reinforce your newly captured cities with an instant army. A brutally effective tenant for warfare.

Cult of Personality: +50% tourism to civilization fighting a common enemy. Free GP of your choice.

(F)

50% tourism sounds awesome, but its really hard to maintain, especially since generally you will be hostile to that last key civ you need to tourism flip. The free GP is just ok at this point.

Not worth of Tier 3 to me.

Gunboat Diplomacy: Gain 6 inf with CS you could demand tribute from. Your military forces are 50% more effective at intimidating CS.

(N/A)

This one seems ok to me, the easier intimidation could net you good tribute, although I honestly don't know how good tribute is this late in the game...seems better to ally with city states for their votes.

Some suggestions:

Freedom

Media Culture: +34% tourism and +1 happiness in cities with a broadcast tower.

(A)

I would like to add you gain a two copies of the media content unique luxury resource or,
to add: Broadcast towers tower provide a free media content unique luxury resource,
Or even change it to be: For each civ, you gain +X% tourism against it, where X is twice the number of luxuries you have in common. Each broadcast tower provides two media content luxury ressources.

Spaceship Procurements: Can buy spaceship parts with gold. Build spaceship factories in half the time.

(A)
We could add: when one of your spies sabotages a spaceship part gain that much gold.


Treaty Organization: Gain 4 CS inf per turn with a CS you are trading with.

(C)

I would like this one to change to: gain +1 influence per turn in each city-state you have a franchise in, for each corporation office in your empire.



Order

Dictatorship of the Proleitariant: +34% tourism to civs with less happiness. +1 happiness form factories.

Add: Civilizations not following Order have 10% higher poverty threshold.
or: Civilizations not following Order have 1% higher poverty threshold for each of your cities.

Iron Curtain: Free courthouse upon city capture. +50% food/hammers to internal IRs. +3 gold for city connections.

Whenever you kill an enemy spy, gain science equal to its level * that civilization's science output

Spaceflight Pioneers: Can build spaceship parts with Great Engineers. Gain an immediate GE and GS.

When you completing a spaceship part becomes a historical event with double tourism output.

Autocracy

Air Supremacy: Free Airport in every city. +25% production to air units. Can build zeroes.

- Nope this is already super strong, no additions

Cult of Personality: +50% tourism to civilization fighting a common enemy. Free GP of your choice.

Add: Reset your war weariness every time a GP is born.

Gunboat Diplomacy: Gain 6 inf with CS you could demand tribute from. Your military forces are 50% more effective at intimidating CS.

Add: When demanding tribute from a CS, gain +25 influence with all other CS of that type.

I like your idea about spy sabotage. Late game, civs that have statecraft or built the national intelligence agency (which gives a free spy iirc) often have a ton of spies to use. What about something that would increase (+50%? ) the amount of yields stolen from other civs (probably without actually taking those away from your target but just increasing what you get) while also making your spies harder to catch (-10% catch rate? ). Maybe even throw in a bonus spy to make it easier to use.

I feel like this especially is a good way of making the late game feel interesting and different without disrupting balance because:
a) you still want spies in City States so you can't get that much value
b) it takes a while to establish spies unless you have high tourism
c) doesn't create a "first to tier 3 wins" situation

This is probably unfeasible at this point but it would be cool if you could spend a very large amount of gold (that increases exponentially) to level up your spies! I like the idea of playing a very wealthy civ that can use its influence from the shadows >



It's crazy to me that Freedom has no tier 3 tenets that affect corporations. I really like this idea of making corporations have diplomatic influence (like they do in reality). I would say, +1 per office may be a little high especially since franchises can't be pillaged like trade routes can. Maybe cap it at +3 influence per turn? Or make it so that franchises only give +1 influence per turn in city states you are not at war with and keep the +4 influence per turn with trade routes.
What about +1 vote in WC for every 5 or 6 franchises in foreign cities you have? Also cap that to give no more than 2 votes. That would make spreading your corporation more rewarding but would take a long time to come online and would only give a small bonus.



Not really a fan of this. There are no other maluses you can inflict on other civs and Order seems like the last that would do that. If this was gonna get any kind of buff, I'd say keep it simple like + 1 happiness from National Wonders to help keep high happiness for the tourism bonus. Also pretty thematic for Order.



You don't really need tourism when you're about to win a science victory... Again, I'd just keep it simple, maybe +1% of your science output as Golden Age Points to synergise with the science victory a bit. Late game Golden age points required are pretty high so at best this might net you one less turn before a GA so it won't really have an overwhelming impact. Might even bump it up to +2%.




Seems like you could abuse this with faith purchased GP. The whole point of tourism for warmongers is to reduce resistance so instead of trying to figure out specific percentages for tourism, why not just add -1 turns of resistance when you capture a city. Or maybe only limit it to capitals and have -2 turns of resistance when you capture a capital.



I like this idea! I would suggest lowering it to +10 influence boost and maybe raise the influence resting point for all CS by 5. Simple, engaging, and not overwhelming.

I'm going to focus on those I wouldn't really take.

Autocracy:

Nationalism. At this point, after having gone Authority-Piety-Imperialism, I have no need to increase my GPT. Sure, it's neat, but I don't need it. It doesn't help me, I can rushbuy an unit in my favoured city every turn anyway.

Total War. I don't really need slightly faster unit production, I've likely gone Imperialism anyway so that's not a problem, and if I went Industry I have so much Gold I'll just buy stuff, no point in building it. (Tbh even with Imperialism I likely can buy army too anyway) I'd rather get stronger units. It feels a bit like that Ancient Era Progress policy which gives the same, except Buildings instead of units. The worst one of T2 Autocracy.

SUGGESTION: Nationalism : -33% Gold maintenance. 50% faster Worker improvement speed. Receive a free Great Writer. - basically a policy that helps in a few ways. All makes sense - there's lots of nationalist writers, the rest is reasonable too as the people work harder for a civilisation they're proud of, even if they're not rewarded as much. It'd be fine to take it as a 4th policy, or 3rd if you're somehow desperate for Gold. I'd still not first take it ever, I want my Lightning Warfare first into Santa Clausevits.

Total War : +25% unit production. Instantly destroy and pillage all Trade Routes of the enemy Civ when you declare a war against them and receive 3x yields from pillaging. - basically a troll policy. Since Total War encompasses all spheres of life, something like that feels fitting. The yields you'd receive upon a war declaration would be some neat sweeteners, and it'd be a nice way to cripple the enemy, if possible to do that is. It'd basically be the Brother Policy of Lebensraum, with both being made only to troll (though Lebensraum is not too good)

Another one I would rather not take is Third Alternative: most of the time, at this point I've conquered lots of stuff anyway so I have all the SR I could ask for. It does make getting monopolies easier which is fun, but I think it should also give some yields per Strategic Resource.


Freedom

Universal Suffrage. Maybe +1 Happiness, +50% longer GA and a free instant GA and WLTKD in all cities? Good instantly, but falls off.

Volunteer Army - hard to say what'd make it good. It's good if you get to it fast, but if it's buffed it'd be broken in that case.


Order

Hard to say. T2 of Order is its weakest part by far and nothing stands out too much (except Resreach Labs probably, because they'll be gotten very early now), and Workers Faculties IIRC were buffed or something and I don't remember what they do now.

 

[Anastase Alex]

Cult of personality idea now that I re-read it: instead of resetting war wearyness to 0 when GP is born, reduce it by 2.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Is it just me or are some tenets hard to find reasons for taking? Like, I'm going to focus on Autocracy.

As it is, there are three reasons I'd go Autocracy. They are:

I want to win Domination victory (Domination and/or Cultural if Japan because they're the same thing) because almost everything in the tree is about fighting.
United Front (Diplomatic, very good and still awesome despite indirect nerfs after few last patches, but if enemy civs have +50 billion influence over some CSs, giving stuff is still a waste of time that only makes it worse for you, especially if your technology means you have to give something useful and expensive)
Military-Industrial Complex (UI-heavy and/or Rome especially, but good for everyone to take as first or third at latest T1 tenet)

So here come Nationalism/Total War/Third Alternative. Why should I consider Total War which is comparable to that Progress policy, except it comes much later so it won't save you even comparably as much hammers? What's the point of something like this coming so late? It doesn't help me with anything enough. Nationalism is slightly better as it can give you hundreds of gold, but it won't take away poverty, it won't do anything of value because the unit/building cost you're going to have at this point mean it's not going to give you much. Third Alternative is bad too, I am already a conqueror. If I conquered one continent and am trying to do so for the second, I probably already have enough strategic resources to even give me monopolies. Those three are even worse if you consider they would be taking away the precious spot of +CS policies and Police State.

Suggestions to make those three pickable:
Total War : +25% unit production. Receive a combat bonus equal to enemy's unhappiness, and your enemies receive +25-50% more war weariness. - basically it'd fit the name. Pillage enemy's luxuries, take away his friends through diplomacy to make them easy targets.
Nationalism: -33% maintenance. City connections grant Culture, Science and Food equal to (XX% of the?) Gold they give, and +5/10 of all yields in the capital. - at least Rome would take it, esp with Machu Pikachu. Gold from CC is very low so it wouldn't be a problem, especially if it's something like 25-33% of it. Minor overlap with Autarky, but there's other similar overlaps so it doesn't seem like a problem to me, especially since Autarky is too weak to be picked anyway.
Third Alternative: Workers build improvements 50% faster and all cities receive +5% Production for every strategic resource with a 50%+ monopoly. (+100% strategic resources quantity?) - strong but can be countered, pillage enemy's stuff and everything goes away. The only problem is I feel as if some policy already does that but I can't remember specifics

Gunboat Diplomacy doesn't seem too good, if someone is your friend then you have to overcome the 1000 bullying friends penalty to get anything from it. That means just donating one United Front unit (t1 tenet) is better than this. I wouldn't take that even as a t1 tenet. I've just looked at my friends/allies, counted that even with the bullying help of the policy I still wouldn't get anything and then I decided to not take it over free airports as it wouldn't proc anyway and the game typically ends before I pick a second t3 tenet meaning I never get the chance to use it.

Suggestion:
GD : No loss of influence or quests for demanding Tribute or stealing CS land with Citadels. In addition, demanding Tribute and stealing CS land grants +XX Influence with all other city states and XX Great Diplomat points in your capital. (Units 50% more effective at bullying?) - still fits the name but doesn't step on United Front's turf.

 

[tu_79]

Consider that now you can select random victories, and you may have staid small. So there's a reason for picking something that would help to fight a non-warmonger civ without many monopolies.

 

[Strigvir]

Why do you put United front as a must-have? Producing diplomats directly gives more influence per turn and even with 200% gift rate increase CSes won't gift you enough units for your warmongering needs (on top of having less exp and no morale promo).
Third alternative is more useful and conquering the whole continent doesn't guarantee you lots of Oil/Aluminium either.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

Why do you put United front as a must-have? Producing diplomats directly gives more influence per turn and even with 200% gift rate increase CSes won't gift you enough units for your warmongering needs (on top of having less exp and no morale promo).
Third alternative is more useful and conquering the whole continent doesn't guarantee you lots of Oil/Aluminium either.

If you go for Diplomatic or just want free yields it'd be good, especially since you still keep getting those useless Authority Honour policy troops. When I took it I was more or less pleased, though yeah it's not the first thing I'd ever take nor even the third. I've meant to say that as a way that Autocracy has something to decently help at Diplomacy, not only warfare, and it does synergise with that Authority's policy which makes it good. After Lebensraum, Elite Forces and of course the king of Autocracy, Military-Industrial Complex, it's a fine pick though I'd rather go New World Order as it really helps with unhappiness and has not-irrelevant yield, and I typically have at least some constabularies by then anyway, it's nowhere near as bad as Autarky. It's awesome at what it does, but yeah it's my 4th-5th pick. I'm too aggressive, perhaps.

I think I sort-of agree about Third Alternative, but then I typically have decent late strategic resource luck and by that time I should at least be starting my conquest of the second continent, but I can see it being situational and I can also see myself take it if I had extremely bad luck, though I'd probably rather just get +CS from any policy or utilise Lebensraum's super citadels to borrow more of the resource from someone else. Can't say I see myself wanting to take Nationalism, Gunboat or Total War, and especially not Autarky. Even now that I've converted and play on Standard map which I've started to really like, I always have 20+ cities by Renaissance/Industrial, meaning the policy will give me 3Production and around 2-5Gold per city when everything costs hundreds of production and usually over a thousand Gold to "rush" (Epic speed).

 

[Bromar1]

Gunboat Diplomacy seems weird to me. Once you reach 30 influence with a CS, you can't ask for tribute anymore so there's no benefit. What's the idea behind this tenet? Are you supposed to use it to continuously bully City States?

 

[8bitBob]

I'm probably one of the few people who really likes Gunboat Diplomacy. If you also went Imperialism, you can demand tribute every 3 turns instead of 5-6 turns. Heavy Tribute is based on the yields of your capitol, so it scales incredibly well and it can be worth it to keep a few CS as angry to demand tribute from even if you're utilizing CS alliances.

Its only issue is that you would almost never want to take it before Air Supremacy, which is probably the best T3 policy in the game.

 

[FoxOfWar]

I enjoy the occasional game of Gunboat Diplomacy - that is, using it and a sizable army to pretty much permanently ally all close-ish city states. Granted, this probably is quite a bit trickier now with the supply changes, can't have that many units just parked outside a city state just for intimidation purposes... It's one of those really niche policies where you want to conquer half the world and then decide to vote yourself its' leader. (As opposed to conquering the other half.)