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Level 4 promotions for trebuchet/cannons?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Cromagnus, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Ok, CBs and XBow get Range and Logistics at level 4... what do trebuchets and cannons get? Do they get Range? Or is it just March? I seem to recall they get March. If they do get Range... my next question is... when they get promoted to Artillery do they keep it? (IE range = 4)

    Thanks.
     
  2. civ54lyfe

    civ54lyfe Prince

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    Arty's can get both Logistics and Range, got them both in the last couple games. if Arty can get Range then it would seem that a Cannon could also.
     
  3. Deau

    Deau Emperor

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    I'm almost positive they do get range and yes, it is retained for range 4 artillery. As far as I recall, they also get logistic so the rationale in a different thread could possibly still stand. Realistically though, such highly promoted early siege units are so powerful with +1 range that the risk of losing a logistic pre artillery siege makes range an almost universal pick.

    I haven't tinkered with marathon games since vanilla so take the above with a grain of salt, it may have changed or my memory might just be failing me but even despite the annoying line of sight issue (since range 3 early sieges don't get indirect fire), range 3 sieges are ******** powerful.
     
  4. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Excellent. :D
     
  5. Doctor Doom

    Doctor Doom Warlord

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    That's a good question... I never use siege units other than artillery, I'm going to go test that! :)
     
  6. rowanlad

    rowanlad Chieftain

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    And this is the sort of thing that made early war (and the honor tree for its XP bonus) a bit more viable before.
     
  7. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    The XP bonus is exactly why I asked. I intend to prove that a mixed army of catapults and CBs is a viable alternative to a CB rush, in the right hands. It does however get off to a slower start, because you can build archers for 40 hammers early and promote them for 80g. With Catapults you have to spend 75 hammers and you can't start building them until Mathematics.

    It's also slower, tech-wise. It takes one extra tech to get to Physics vs Machinery if you delay taking Currency. If you don't delay Currency it takes two extra techs, the exact equivalent of Writing + Philosophy.

    In other words, you could have Writing+Philosophy+Currency+Machinery for the same cost as Currency+Physics. Luckily, the gold/kill in Honor makes up for the delay in getting Markets, so it's reasonable to delay Currency until after Physics.

    Or so I intend to prove. :cool:
     
  8. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    it just seems that ai loves focus fire on catapulets and never on cbows ..
     
  9. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I think you're correct. The AI favors the biggest threat and the unit it can do the most damage to, unless there are damaged units. Catapults receive no defensive terrain bonuses, so they're usually the unit the city can do the most damage to. And they're also the biggest threat.

    But beyond that, unless there's a damaged unit, it seems to always go after the biggest threat. Like, it always goes after the most promoted CB if I move them all into range at once, unless that unit is in rough terrain.

    So, you definitely need a meat-shield. But... catapults also do +200% damage to cities. Get them *just* the Range promotion and that's as good as a CB with Logistics + Range. At least for city attack. Get them Logistics too and it's almost the equivalent of two promoted CBs. Again, for city attack. :p

    I think a mixed army is viable. One Range catapult can fill in for 2 CBs. One Range trebuchet can fill in for 2 XBows.

    The problem is the sheer research cost.
     
  10. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    Yeah, i had ranged cannons before. Problem is absence of indirect fire, but, maybe, in good hands, as you say..
     
  11. DarthSheldonPhD

    DarthSheldonPhD Warlord

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    which is why I usually use the level 4 promotion on cover, to address the OP. range would be great, but doesn't really help out if the unit has already been destroyed.
     
  12. JeSuisNapoleon

    JeSuisNapoleon Prince

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    You need a damage sponge if your going to use catapults or even trebuchet early in the game. If you have such a thing then the siege unit should survive and gain XP and become that much more valuable later. I have had trebuchet at their 3rd promo this way. no reason to think the cannon couldn't get the 4th. I wasn't even trying that hard.

    "damage sponge" = "meat-shield" any tough unit with ranged attack defense promo should do. Swordsmen or Pike in the early days. Warriors will only work in the very early game, and I would not recommend it.

    once the sponge is a little damaged, the catapult should be able to move in without worries. Dont bring the siege weapons in range on the very first turn if your sponge is full health.

    This works best when the sponge is sitting on an improved tile, so you can pillage and survive longer.

    If your target city has buffs to increase city defense damage, then this strategy may (Will) fail utterly. The old Oligarchy + Goddess of protection thing means I need to wait for artillery or flight (or for my Great Prophet to show up and remove the goddess). Even a Good CB rush can fail against such a well defended city, as terrain can slow them down and force them to walk right up to the city.
     
  13. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    This aspect of it is no different from a CB rush. You need a damage sponge either way.
     
  14. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    LoS calculation for 3 range is very buggy
     
  15. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    This is unfortunately very true.
     
  16. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    its not bugy at all - maybe u just dont understand it ...
     
  17. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

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    It's an intended feature. You just have to memorize all the angles. Adds depth.
     
  18. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    Are you sure it was intended that the angle be more restrictive? From two tiles away you can fire through a 50% obstruction. From 3 tiles away you can't even fire through a lesser obstruction. The side effect of that is that you can have what visually appears to a better firing angle and yet can't hit the target. I'm almost certain that's a bug. It's the only situation where you can't shoot something even when you can see it. If you have a scout with vision 1 that upgrades to a range cb he can see things that he can't shoot. That, to me, is just broken. But whatever. It doesn't matter, it's certainly not the only bug in the game. :p
     
  19. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Kind of hard to memorize the constantly changing angles of Eldritch geometries... I seem to recall a couple times when my longbows could fire in one direction but not another over identical terrain.
     
  20. Crafty Bison

    Crafty Bison King

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    Level 4? You should really be taking the cover promos with early game siege at levels 2 and 3, else they won't last.
     

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