[RD] LGBTQ news

[Berzerker]

People who are opposed to trans girls competing alongside cis girls aren't even trying to make a good-faith, fact-based argument. Are you sure you want to stand alongside them?

If a girl beat a boy does that mean girls and boys compete on level a playing field? Thats the argument SciAm made. I'd think analysis of all trans athlete performances would give us a better idea of any advantages.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I think it's not that surprising that if you get to some privilege being attached (such as someone with a typical male body-type competing against females), problems do appear. Imagine a white person self-identifying as black, because it does express them, but somewhere down the line making use of some perk under some program which makes it clear that it applies only if you actually are black or other minority.
Drexl from True Romance clearly thinks he is black. And no one should care, I suppose - his friend in the club is black and doesn't seem to care.But Drexl didn't apply for a minority-only program; he works for the mafia.


Personally I see no hypocrisy in those accepting someone as (say) female if they identify as such, but don't want them to be in sports of that gender.

The issue in totality is complex, when you consider all the money and industries and politics involved, but the underlying issue is not complex at all. Its a simple question. Do you accept that trans-females are female or not? If yes, then you must support/accept them competing as female. The only way you can favor forcing them to compete as males is if you disbelieve that they are "real" females and believe that they are really males. It all boils down to that simple question.

 

[Sommerswerd]

For me, not for thee

Exactly this. I reject the notion that Caitlyn Jenner can simultaneously hold this position regarding trans female athletes while being female herself. She has to either adopt the position that she is not really female, but instead a male that prefers to live life pretending to be female, or abandon her position on trans female athletes. I don't see any intellectually honest alternative.

 

[Naskra]

I don't see any intellectually honest alternative

He's been an Olympic gold medallist, a wheaties box face, a reality tv star, and a gubernetorial candidate. Maybe intellectual honesty is just not on his bucket list.

 

[Kyriakos]

The issue in totality is complex, when you consider all the money and industries and politics involved, but the underlying issue is not complex at all. Its a simple question. Do you accept that trans-females are female or not? If yes, then you must support/accept them competing as female. The only way you can favor forcing them to compete as males is if you disbelieve that they are "real" females and believe that they are really males. It all boils down to that simple question.

I personally am not going to make or lose any money, or (probably) even ever know anyone who will compete against a TS athlete, so of course personally I am fine with TS competing as the gender they identify with.
I just don't expect those who may lose out on some sport (tied to college/money etc) to view it like this.
It's not my issue in the first place to get involved; I am sure being TS is hugely difficult even without any added drama.

 

[Berzerker]

I'm sure Jenner understands very well it was her male body that won Olympic gold, she's not going to pretend otherwise. So at what point in the transitioning process can we say the physical advantages of being male disappear? Maybe they dont.

 

[Broken_Erika]

So at what point in the transitioning process can we say the physical advantages of being male disappear? Maybe they dont.

Depends on what age they transition, and whether they got puberty blockers.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Depends on what age they transition, and whether they got puberty blockers.

As everyone is aware, and as has already been pointed out, given Jenner's history, this and other factors are things that Jenner would be familiar with. My guess is the position she is taking is for political reasons, as she is running as a Republican. Its still intellectually dishonest.

 

[Broken_Erika]

As everyone is aware, and as has already been pointed out, given Jenner's history, this and other factors are things that Jenner would be familiar with. My guess is the position she is taking is for political reasons, as she is running as a Republican. Its still intellectually dishonest.

She's an arsehole, always has been. always will be.

 

[Samson]

It seems to me the question is what is the point of sports?

1. To make a saleable spectacle (Olympics, professional football).
   1. The important thing here is to get people watching, and the best people to judge that are the sporting bodies. I am happy with them making the decision, as they have the incentive to get it right (as long as they have promotion/relegation ). This is the Caster Semenya thing.
2. To get kids outside, running about, cooperating and competing.
   1. The important thing here is inclusiveness. Anything that puts people off has to be a bad thing, so the metric has to be what rules will get most people involved. I would think it is fairly clear here that allowing trans people to compete with others who match their gender identity is the best way.
3. As a metric on which to ration higher education.
   1. It seems quite obvious to me that this is a bad thing, and should be stopped. If I go to the doctors I want the doctor to be the swotty kid who was good at biology and chemistry, not the jock who was good at sports. In a more general sense, I think one of the most important things for a country is to ensure that higher education goes to those most able to benefit from it, as this will give the most capable workforce and the most successful economy.
4. To provide some sort of equality of opportunity or outcome.
   1. This is never going to happen. I have short legs, and however hard I tried I would never be able to compete with Usain Bolt. Fair play in sport is not about being equal, it is about following the rules. What the rules are is not a moral decision, but a practical one. We can make them whatever we want, and as long as people follow them then it is "fair" (for some values of fair).

 

[Arakhor]

Moderator Action: As a reminder, intentionally misgendering people is considered trolling, as it serves only to generate a negative response and sidetrack the thread. Thank you.

 

[EnglishEdward]

5. Having fun.

6. Keeping fit.

 

[AmazonQueen]

I personally am not going to make or lose any money, or (probably) even ever know anyone who will compete against a TS athlete, so of course personally I am fine with TS competing as the gender they identify with.
I just don't expect those who may lose out on some sport (tied to college/money etc) to view it like this.
It's not my issue in the first place to get involved; I am sure being TS is hugely difficult even without any added drama.

But as has been pointed out there isn't the evidence of a problem. Transgender athletes are not dominating sport at any level.

 

[Sommerswerd]

As a metric on which to ration higher education.

It seems quite obvious to me that this is a bad thing, and should be stopped. If I go to the doctors I want the doctor to be the swotty kid who was good at biology and chemistry, not the jock who was good at sports. In a more general sense, I think one of the most important things for a country is to ensure that higher education goes to those most able to benefit from it, as this will give the most capable workforce and the most successful economy

Going along with your premise... Colleges and Universities have their own sets of considerations in terms of who they want to admit. They are large organizations/companies, run by trustees and they admit students based on what they think is the most beneficial to the University, not the individual student, or "the country". So if having a championship contender sports team(s) is what the trustees think is in the University's best interest, that is what they are going to do. Admittance into a University isn't an entitlement based on good grades or test scores, no matter how badly some folks wish it was. Skill on the athletic field is as viable, and sometimes more viable criterion for admittance to a University as skill in the classroom. The individual school decides what traits are most important to them in terms of admitting students. Another trait that Universities value, for obvious reasons, is the tendency to continue to donate to the school's endowment after graduation, which tends to favor legacy, which is, by far, the most important admission criterion to most Universities.

So applying this to the issue being discussed, ie., trans female athletes, I will say that I find the notion that any substantial number of persons would pretend to be trans in order to get admitted to a University for athletic reasons, pretty absurd. And that is all that matters really, because if a person is legitimately trans female, any supposed advantage that they theoretically have is incidental, like being taller in some sports or shorter in some sports or heavier in some sports or shaped a certain way in some sports.

 

[Ajidica]

The only place I can see it being even sort of an issue is with high level professional events where differences between male and female biology does play a role when both competitors are equally skilled.
Suppose a high quality Olympic athlete, who had been competing as a male, came out as transgender and for whatever reason declined at that time to undergo medically assisted transition or hormone therapy. Despite being in medical terms biologically male, the athlete wishes to compete as a female, which they identify as and are living as. Whether or not a transgender person has medically transition has no bearing on whether or not they are properly "transgender", but I'm not sure that in some specific circumstances the answer is immediately obvious. If high level athletics shouldn't take into account male and female biological differences, then why have separate male and female categories? I'm not sure how many female athletes would be in favor of eliminating female athletic categories.

For youth or community athletic teams however, I don't think it matters. Heck, in high school the girls on the softball and girls hockey team were plenty terrifying on their own.

 

[Farm Boy]

This was exactly the issue I brought up some time back. You can't really selectively accept a person's gender definition. If trans girls are girls then they should play girls sports. If not, then you aren't accepting them as girls, at a minimum you're patronizing them as, "Oh sure you can be a 'girl' *wink*... but seriously, you're a boy", or at the far end, your just saying outright "Eff that, you're a boy, I don't gaf how you want to 'define' yourself".

Can't there just be the understanding that transwomen are trans and women? Like, just, they are? Or is that wrong. Not being snarky. Would it be more equitable if we just rolled all events into one gender/sex irrelevant league?

I'm guessing adolescent girls would flee high school sports, in general, like the non-jock adolescent boys do at that age, but maybe I'm wrong and should we give a rats ass in the first place?

 

[Kyriakos]

Trying to make a living out of sports won't end well for most, anyway, TS or not TS.
It is a diversion, in a way, but I doubt this will stop the drama, since if you are trying to compete in such a low-rate of success field, you are likely to be all the more anxious about added competition.

 

[EgonSpengler]

The only place I can see it being even sort of an issue is with high level professional events where differences between male and female biology does play a role when both competitors are equally skilled.
Suppose a high quality Olympic athlete, who had been competing as a male, came out as transgender and for whatever reason declined at that time to undergo medically assisted transition or hormone therapy. Despite being in medical terms biologically male, the athlete wishes to compete as a female, which they identify as and are living as. Whether or not a transgender person has medically transition has no bearing on whether or not they are properly "transgender", but I'm not sure that in some specific circumstances the answer is immediately obvious. If high level athletics shouldn't take into account male and female biological differences, then why have separate male and female categories? I'm not sure how many female athletes would be in favor of eliminating female athletic categories.

fwiw, I found a reference to NCAA guidelines on transgender athletes published in 2011, so it's not a brand-new issue that nobody's examined yet. Presumably there's been 10 years of data since then? It looks like the International Olympic Committee published some guidelines in 2015 and was set to reexamine them after Tokyo 2020 before we all went screaming over the waterfall.

As for gender segregation in sports, it is a conundrum. One reason to have separate competitions is simply to have more competitions. Basketball fans get two "March Madnesses" every year. Soccer/football fans get two World Cups, one every two years. MMA/UFC fans get a couple more divisions to follow.

For youth or community athletic teams however, I don't think it matters. Heck, in high school the girls on the softball and girls hockey team were plenty terrifying on their own.

Yes, one of the discomfiting things about these attacks on transgender people is that they're going after children. I try to give conservatives the benefit of the doubt and see things from their perspective, if only so I can debate the issue on their terms, but I gotta say, it's not a good look, guys. If I see an adult shoving a kid irl, I don't so much care whether the grownup has a valid argument.

 

[Farm Boy]

I daresay school and local sports are more important factors on the people and the country in total than the flagship leagues. Whotf really cares about March Madness compared to the local middle school track meets? Whatever rules we come up with have to work small, not big. Girls' and boys' performance at that level, not the top of the team, is practically identical to each other in football and stuff, right?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Has anyone set a standard (for sports competitions) for when a trans person becomes a man or woman? What does one have to do to one's body (if anything) to be moved to the new category? Name change? Hormones? Surgery?