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[LH] Leonidas of Greece.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Graphics Modpacks' started by Aranor, Mar 8, 2008.

  1. NikNaks

    NikNaks Chieftain

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    Wolf, watch the 300 sometime :p. It may be stretching the truth quite a lot but some of it is fairly realistic.
     
  2. Aranor

    Aranor Chieftain

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    Actually the only thing they got right was the fact that they fought nearly naked. Aside from that its complete fiction ( Don't get me wrong the battle at Thermoplae did happen and the general story is there). If you want a reasonably accurate account of the battle of Thermoplae (for a Hollywood movie that is) watch the 1960s movie 300 Spartans. It certainly is more accurate in the story and the accounts of the battle itself.
     
  3. Deon

    Deon Lt. of Mordor

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    Wiki shows a painting of spartan men fighting with their helmets, shields and weapons but with no armor (battle of Thermopilae). So you may be right.
    But also I know that spartan hoplites were wearing bronze+leather "anatomic" body armor, so I doubt*** that they were REALLY fighting without armor at all. But it's true that during parades and celebrations the warriors were marching with no armor, but with new shields, helmets, cloaks, leather pelts and superior weapons, so in this case (when you meet the leader) he's not supposed to fight you but shows you his military valor, wearing the parade attributes.

    ***and I may be totally wrong here because I'm not THAT greek history expert :).
     
  4. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    I just watched the History Channell last night on the Rise and Fall of Sparta, and they were very specific that the Spartans at Thermopilae were heavily armored (ie: not wearing helmets and tunics in battle).

    They repeatedly mentioned that the Spartans were much more heavily armored then the Persian troops... so I'm really having a hard time believing that Spartans wore nothing but helmets and tunics in battle. The entire Greek system was based on armored hoplites, and the Spartans were best at this. The fact they played sports in the nude is well documented, but fighting battles in the nude... well... that doesn't make much sense, and I doubt that... for fighting battles in the nude, I think we should be thinking more of the Celts.

    All I was saying is that it seemed odd to me that Leonidas is wearing both a helmet and a tunic together... a tunic on it's own would seem fine... a helmet with some armor would seem fine... but put the two together... well, to me it's like wearing a tux with tails up-top and combining it with some shorts down below. Just seems odd. The model is great, I just thought the combination of helmet+tunic was odd... that's all. I'm confident Thermopalie was fought heavily armored, as that was a huge part of the reason 300 were able to hold the pass for so long with so few casualties. They wouldn't have gotten over so well if they were wearing tunics with their helmets instead of bronze armor.
     
  5. Ur_Vile_Wedge

    Ur_Vile_Wedge Chieftain

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    That's not *exactly* true. If they had time to prepare, almost anyone of that time would have worn whatever armor (usually the heaviest they could find) that was available. The movements towards lighter armor occured mostly in the Peloponesean wars and afterwards.


    EDIT- someone beat me to it. Oh well


    What traits is the guy going to have? I would vote for Protective/Embezzler.
     
  6. Ekmek

    Ekmek on steam: ekmek_e

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    yeah i recalled that too. I'm real tempted to take the armor of the greek UU and put it on some one. But I have this backlog of leaderheads...
     
  7. mamba

    mamba Chieftain

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    I completely agree, I'd go with this leaderhead instead.
     
  8. Aranor

    Aranor Chieftain

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    I'm not going to say your wrong as I'm not a professional historian who specializes in Ancient Greek history( I do study alot of history, but specialize in Dacian history more than Greek these days).

    But from all the information I have read and from what I already knew of the battle, people need to remember that there was not just 300 Spartans at the battle.

    As for what armor they wore. This is where my expertise fails me. For all the reading I have done I have not found any information telling me about what ( if any) armor the Spartans wore. Some say it would have been Bronze muscled curiass, others say linothorax. I find linothorax hard to believe as if they were heavily armored as you say linothorax ( while offering great maneuverability) did not offer as much protection as Bronze curiass.

    One thing that must be remembered and something that 300 got right. Is that the Spartans were highly arrogant. When they fought in battle they would fight on the right flank and forced their allies to fight on the left. This was the general practice of they time where the most elite troops would anchor the right flank of the line while the left flank contained the most inexperienced troops. Due to this the Spartans would often fight the least experienced troops, thats not to say their reputation was not deserved ( they were a power until the battle of Sellesia in 222 B.C.E although their power had been in decline for around 100 years prior) and in 480 B.C.E when Sparta was at the height of her power it is conceivable that they would have gone to war naked. As you yourself point out Wolfshanze the Celts did fight naked ( Infact they fought this way longer than any other people in Europe with contingents fighting like this up until atleast 272 B.C.E) the reasons why men would go into battle naked are numerous, they would have superior maneuverability to their enemies, their general appearance would be unnerving to any who faced them. Think of it you standing in a battle line, and across from you hundreds for men face you. They are completely naked save for their shields and Corinthian Helmet. It certainly would freak me out abit, the sheer arrogance and confidence of these men to fight in this manner must be staggering.
     
  9. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    You seem to be basing most of your information on the movie 300... which is about as far from the truth as can be.

    There's plenty of documention on ancient greece, sparta and the wars they fought. Unlike your statements, I have seen and heard almost nothing saying the typical greek army fought naked... the greeks were most commonly some of the heaviest armored troops of the ancient world... as for number of troops involved at Thermopolie, what in the world does that have to do with the armor they wore (which is well documented as being heavier then the Persians).

    All I was saying from the start, was that I found it odd you chose to put a bronze helmet on a guy wearing a tunic, and you defended it by saying the greeks often fought in the nude... which I simply don't agree with, and find rather historically incorrect. I'd rather you say "artistic freedom" then try and justify it with greeks (especially Spartans at Thermopolie) fighting in the nude or with no armor.

    If you said "I thought the helmet + tunic looked cool", I'd find that more reasonable then "it's historically accurate for Spartans in warfare".
     
  10. Aranor

    Aranor Chieftain

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    Sorry I was half asleep when I wrote that. Now I read it, it doesn't make sense even to me!

    First off none of my information is based off of the movie 300. I cant stand that movie:yuck:

    The short version is I based my leaderhead off of historical artwork I have seen of Leonidas.



    Both the Bronze bust, and the contemporary painting show him at the very least without armor. The final Statue clearly shows him naked. That statue incidentally is located at the battle site at Thermopylae.

    As for my statements in the previous posts and in this thread in general. I have been going back over my information and realized I did come to a horrible mistake. I mixed my time periods up! The period I refer too when they would have fought nude would be in the Trojan war period, some 200 - 300 years earlier (Thats 480 - 580 B.C.E). When it was fashionable to fight naked. At the time of the Persian invasion at 280 B.C. you probably are correct in that they fought with armor. That still doesn't mean that the Leonidas will be changed to have armor, as I stated above and showed above the reasons why he has no armor is based off of artwork found of him depicting no armor.

    The point I think I was trying to make, as it makes the most sense ( the rest is rambling nonsense I agree:rolleyes:) Is that you did not take into account that there was not just 300 Spartans at the battle as you said here:

    As I quoted in the previous thread. There was alot more than just 300 men on the Greek side of the wall. Heres a quote from Herodotus the Histories book 7: Polymnia 202 - 204.

    If Xeres numbered in 1 million men as people reported at the time (infact all accounts come from about 40 years after the battle itself) if on 300 men held the pass the would have been defeated very quickly without being flanked from sheer force of numbers, heavily armored or not.

    So in short yes I did take a bit of "artistic freedom" as you put it. However it is all based from original sources so I cant say it is inaccurate.
     
  11. Edgecrusher

    Edgecrusher Chieftain

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    I think its funny because last spring/summer I made a Leonidas LH, posted it here and comments were made that it was inaccurate because the version I made "Had Armor".

    Oh well.
     
  12. Aranor

    Aranor Chieftain

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    Guess we cant please anyone :rolleyes:
     
  13. mamba

    mamba Chieftain

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    I just checked, while some complained about armor at all, other complained about chain armor, the latter complaint was definitely valid ;)
     
  14. C.Roland

    C.Roland FFH Art team member

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  15. Aranor

    Aranor Chieftain

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    Actually Roland I don't think your problem is the shape ( Although I have never D/Led to look) but from what I can see in the screen shots here the problem is with the texture. The texture has always looked like stone to me. If it was a more metallic texture with a gloss I don't think you would have as much of a problem with how thick it looks.
     
  16. C.Roland

    C.Roland FFH Art team member

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    Well, It's easy to make it shinnier, maybe I'll update it, you're right.
     
  17. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    Artists tend to be fanciful... naked statues are always very popular, but that doesn't make them historically accurate. Just because a naked stature of Leonidas is at Thermopolie, doesn't mean that Leonidas fought naked at Thermpolie (I hope you don't believe that).

    Also, most (if not all) of the artwork of Leonidas was commonly made hundreds of years after the guy was dead... and it's not like they had photos to base them off of.

    As for numbers of troops at Thermopolie, I still fail to see what this has to do with what he was wearing... yeah... I said "300 troops at Thermopolie"... and I'm still accurate no matter what you want to dig-up, because all this time I'm talking about Leonidas and Spartans.... of which there were 300. I'm not saying Leonidas, Spartans and his Greek allies numbered 300 total. This number focus of yours is just avoiding my point ("quick, look at the monkey" ) that Leonidas wouldn't have worn a helmet and tunic in battle (particuarly at Thermopolie).

    That's all I've been trying to say from the start. Bottom line... it's a nice model, and well done, I simply thought it odd that one would combine an armored helmet with a guy in a tunic.

    As for Roland's Leonidas... while he is indeed armored, my personal thought of that LH was that the armor texture seems to make it look like the armor was carved out of solid rock.

    In any case, I suck at this sort of stuff... I can't do what any of you guys do at graphics work, so any effort I would make would be horrendous, and I freely admit that.
     
  18. Aranor

    Aranor Chieftain

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    As I have said numerous times seems no matter what I do people whinge. They whinge because I included this city in a civ but they think it shouldn't be there because there Grandpa was born there and that country took it from his in some war long ago. Or that artistic license on a unit/ leaderhead is not any good because while based on other art work that has been done and available to people they still think its work (case in point). So why should I bother any more? :sad::rolleyes:

    Ohh and as for your point about numbers at Thermopylae. I wasnt trying to take away from the point about armor. I was simply stating your assertation of 300 men was incorrect and that there was more like 7000 men.
     
  19. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    Still obsessed about numbers... for the umpteenth millionth time... I never said there were only 300 troops grand total at Thermopolie... I said (numerous times) there were 300 Spartans at Thermopolie... Spartans... SPARTANS... SPARTANS. Sheesh... I've been trying to keep this focused on Leonidas and what he and the common SPARTAN would wear... all of my referances have been about Leonidas and SPARTANS... what is your obsession with the allies of Sparta when we're talking about Leonidas and Spartans?

    Is this a thread about Leonidas... a Spartan? Or is this a thread about how many allied troops of Sparta there were at Themopolie?

    Oh... and your LH is a good one... never said it wasn't... just questioned the combination of helmet + tunic... no more... no less.
     
  20. Aranor

    Aranor Chieftain

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    My point is I showed you the evidence/ sources I used and you still questioned it. I used the best suited Leaderhead we currently have available (Caesar). If a better one existed I would have used him instead, but the fact is there is not.

    I'm not even going to argue the rest it is pointless.

    @ ROLAND

    I will take a look at the texture on that leaderhead if you like I have a huge database of Brass and Bronze textures available on my comp that I have some neat ideas for!:D BtW is it a shader LH or a NOSHADER?
     

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