OzzyKP
Emperor
I think a better comparison would be having Queen Elizabeth and Queen Victoria leaders for the same civ. Elizabeth ruled "England" and Victoria ruled the "United Kingdom". Also, Victoria was ethnically German.
LH Request: Desmond Tutu, or another Zulu leader.
- Thread starter The Capo
- Start date
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Oh please
I use it as an example, because EVERYBODY KNOWS ABOUT HITLER.
I didn't know the mere mention of Hitler makes you a bad person... exactly what are you trying to infer? The mere use of the name "Hitler" makes someone a Nazi or something? I suppose the History channel should be banned because Hitler is on about every other program?
I notice you like sterilizing history way too much... you should probably stop.
The Capo
godless Heathen
No I didn't mean that makes you a bad person, its not like I'm accusing you of name-dropping him because you like him. I am accusing you of being an idiot because you rely on him for your comparisons. Basically you are doing it incorrectly, so you should stop doing it.
The Capo
godless Heathen
But I don't want to turn this thread into an argument (kinda hard to do now I realize after calling you an idiot), but Wyz if you still have that LH using Kublai as a base I'd like to take a look at it. I have to make sure I pair Shaka up with a Zulu otherwise Wolfshanze will flip . .. .. .. . on me.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Hey I didn't name drop... it was an image of him getting donked on the head... oh well, I guess I BETTER STOP... or else someone is going to get me!
(Gotta love the subversive threats)
PM me with an email and I'll send it to you. I don't think I have it here - probably at home.
snipperrabbit!!
Deity
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2006
- Messages
- 3,396
I think Dinizulu could use Hammurabi's body.
Funny that Wolf mentions Ceteswayo, but nobody brings up Mpande himself. Man stabilized the Zulu kingdom after the post-Shaka dynastic craziness. Given that Shaka made the borders, but Mpande was the one who made it a going concern after the poor management of Dingiswayo and others, Mpande might be a good candidate. Apologies for not posting a pic or link; this is a flying visit.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Mpande was considered a weak man in comparison to his contemporaries, little more then a figure-head, and while other half-brothers were removed he was allowed to live. Length on a thrown doesn't make you a great king... he was weak and a poor leader... that's why I didn't bring him up.
For a Zulu leader, length on the throne is damn near the only qualification for greatness. You're either Shaka, or you're an also-ran. Mpande was the most successful also-ran, since he (a) survived, and (b) didn't leave the kingdom in much worse shape than he found it.
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
Oh good Lord... longevity doesn't equal greatness... if that's all you can come up with, then you don't know anything about Mpande. He was seen by everyone around him as a failure, and that includes the Zulus themselves.
Victoria ruled the "United Kingdom", yes, but she also ruled England (as well as Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and other parts of the British Empire). Desmond Tutu, on the other hand, never ruled anything. He furthermore has never claimed to be Shaka's heir (to my knowledge), while Victoria did claim to be rightful heir to the very throne Elizabeth and her predecessors held (a claim with which just about every historian agrees). This isn't one of those things where you can just twist words around to make anything true.
OzzyKP
Emperor
I was thinking more of Mandela. Who did rule the land of the Zulu.
Oh good Lord... longevity doesn't equal greatness... if that's all you can come up with, then you don't know anything about Mpande. He was seen by everyone around him as a failure, and that includes the Zulus themselves.
This from a man who, as has been pointed out, uses Hitler as the base of comparison for every civilization decision, as opposed to, say, Julius Caesar or Napoleon, both of whom fall into the "everybody knows" category, and have the amazing advantage that you can say nice things about them in their home country. The fact is, what you have to work with in the Zulu empire is a period from roughly 1800 to roughly 1900, where your leadership choices are Shaka... and a series of not-Shakas. Mpande was the least self-destructive of the not-Shakas. As for whether I know anything at all about the Zulu, how many people here could name more than two Zulu kings off the top of their heads (Senzagakona, Shaka, Dingane, Mpande, Ceteswayo, during the period of independence), or, for that matter, Shaka's father (Senzagakona)?
By your standards, then, the Year of Five Emperors for Rome must be a noteworthy leader by itself, or the Time of Troubles in Russia, because they both had huge societal impacts. They were bad for their countries - gee, sounds like Onkel Adolf again! - but they were huge. Mpande provided several decades of stability to a kingdom that desperately needed stability. Did he accomplish anything? No, but then, who among the post-Shaka Zulu leaders did accomplish anything, other than to be knocked over, then set back up again, then knocked over again, by foreign powers?
Wolfshanze
CFC Historian
I fail to see what your point is... what does that have to do with anything? For someone who seems to want to carry a argument over something (of which you don't even seem to know what you're trying to say), you are flailing like a crazed person here in every direction but you're not carrying a point or making any sense. Why do you keep bringing up Hitler anyways?
Really... now you're just flailing for no reason... you seem to have hostility issues or something... I have no idea what you purpose of your post was. I talked about how Mpande was a failed leader and you keep talking about nonsensical things that have nothing to do with Mpande being a failed leader.
I guess Wiki is your friend, eh? Only takes about a 5th grade education to look that up on the web... I'm not impressed.
How does taking a list from the internet of Zulu leaders proves to me either you are super-intelligent or that Mpande wasn't a failed and unpopular leader? I suppose you'll want to bring up something about Hitler again? Seems to be the only thing you do when you run out of ideas.
MadmanOfALeader
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 2,487
Cetshwahyo is obviously the best choice for a second Zulu leader.
MadmanOfALeader
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2008
- Messages
- 2,487
Cetshwayo is obviously the best choice for a second Zulu leader.
The Capo
godless Heathen
Basically the idea here is not even really to get a REAL leader. And I should have probably explained this to begin with, we play (and by we I mean Ozzy and I, and a bunch of other people but nobody you know probably) with pretty much the same group of people who we noticed were choosing the same few civs over and over again. Without getting into it too much we wanted to extend this and create more leaders for other civs who would have different traits that may prompt people to choose them more often. So that is the idea, we are basically trying to give almost OPPOSITE leaders to these countries. The Zulus, thus, would need a peaceful leader. Which is why I suggested Tutu and Mandela. I am just going to change the name to the Nguni and make Mandela the second leader, I wanted to keep them as the Zulus and try to find another Zulu leader but it doesn't look like I'll be able to do that properly. I know it doesn't matter what traits I give the leader, but by the same logic it wouldn't matter what leader I gave them either (I could even give them a fake leader really). But thanks for your help and I didn't want to start an argument over it.
The reason I brought this up was because of Madman's post; yes I agree that Cetshwayo would be the best second leader for the Zulu, but not for our purposes. I also can't find a leaderhead that I like for him, the only good one out there pretty much lucks like monty, which is fine, but I wanted this thing to look really different. And since I don't have the skills to make leaderheads on my own I have to rely on what's out there, and there's a good Mandela leaderhead that I wanted to use. I tried to get a Tutu leaderhead because his ethnic make-up encompasses more of the Nguni/Bantu people and I figured that would be more "Zulu" than Mandela, but its alright. And Wolfshanze, I wasn't implying that you liked Hitler when I said that, I was simply saying that you can't use him for comparisons to everything. I know he is a good name to drop because of the shock-value behind it, but its just not always an appropriate comparison to make. In all honesty I don't think Hitler was really that great of a leader, he was infamous and all, but I think there are plenty of better people to use other than him, and I don't want to make an issue out of it or anything I just want you to know that I wasn't trying to align you with Hitler or Nazism I just have noticed you around these forums (its hard not to notice you) and you always seem to bring Hitler up for some reason.
The reason I brought this up was because of Madman's post; yes I agree that Cetshwayo would be the best second leader for the Zulu, but not for our purposes. I also can't find a leaderhead that I like for him, the only good one out there pretty much lucks like monty, which is fine, but I wanted this thing to look really different. And since I don't have the skills to make leaderheads on my own I have to rely on what's out there, and there's a good Mandela leaderhead that I wanted to use. I tried to get a Tutu leaderhead because his ethnic make-up encompasses more of the Nguni/Bantu people and I figured that would be more "Zulu" than Mandela, but its alright. And Wolfshanze, I wasn't implying that you liked Hitler when I said that, I was simply saying that you can't use him for comparisons to everything. I know he is a good name to drop because of the shock-value behind it, but its just not always an appropriate comparison to make. In all honesty I don't think Hitler was really that great of a leader, he was infamous and all, but I think there are plenty of better people to use other than him, and I don't want to make an issue out of it or anything I just want you to know that I wasn't trying to align you with Hitler or Nazism I just have noticed you around these forums (its hard not to notice you) and you always seem to bring Hitler up for some reason.
